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  • Index
  •  » Recording
  •  » Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

#1 2012-08-28 20:35:27

FelipeCarvalho
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Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

The subject came up on that troll thread, but I think its nice to address. Please consider this outside the samples and other discussions of that thread ok?

I was defending that despite the quality of the recording device, accoustics,  its placement and technique used to capture the audio, if the source is good, if there is content being delivered, it will be perceived as good music. Not high-fi music, but good anyways.

I will also add here that this quality, musicianship, NEEDS to come from somewhere, or it will suck no matter how many thousands of dollars you expend in gear. If the singer cant do it, then a producer/coach/recording engineer will have to fix and, if needed, create it.

Owen defined a decent recording on terms of the audio quality. I think otherwise. I think that decent, good, and even commercial quality comes not from the technical audio quality, but from the content, musical material. If you have the listenner attention, and the person likes what is being played, you got your objective, no matter if you used k7 tape to capture it.

Not only that, technically, commercial CDs nowdays simply suck. They do not translate the original audio being played, in many cases, the original audio was so bad you would throw up if it was there. So fidelity and technical audio quality can not, and are not the game changer. The moment you auto-tune and compress the hell out of a vocal line, you distorted it to the point of becomming impossible of recognizing.

You proceed then into quantizing it to the tempo grid, then ajusting formants, and probably no one will even recognize the singer anymore. Although it will probably sound good.

This means that musicianship is not comming from the artists and singers, but from the production.

I do not mean that we should begin using android phones to record our demos, nor that everyone should just sing into crappy headsets. What I mean, and I think this is very important, is that if its not sounding nice, if it does not sound like music, its not equipment fault, its on the execution side.

I produced proof of that, and as I said, good enough as Demo material. Other users also do so oftenly.

So read that until it burns in your brain, if it does not sound good, the problem is on the execution.

Gear is just gear, just tools. Some specific kind of gear allows you to turn poor execution into something more or less acceptable, and then you will play another role as a musician since you will manufacture a performance, but these kinds of tools are not microphones, or pre amplifiers.

Still, this is a singing community, and as far as singing is concerned, you place a good singer near a recording cellphone or cam and it will sound good enough to catch your attention to the end of the performance. Place an ok singer on a $10.000 Newman mic pluged into a pre amplifier thats worth my internal organs, and it will sound just ok, not good, maybe cristal clear and highly defined ok.

I figure that if my words are not enough to explain then its just a matter of explainning better. The proof was produced, done the Silent Lucidity recording and it was reviewed as good, I am up to produce another kind of proof if you guys think its usefull, but recording Baba O Riley using just an Android Phone is a little too much, I dont have neither the skill nor the time for it, an absurd proposal actually.

Experience on recording environments was mentioned...  What I can say is that working with the tracking and production of independent artists, was when all this become so clear to me, so obvious that its kind of sad actually. Truth is, singing is neglected. The most important part of the song is cast to luck or to the will of gods and other entities. I swear, 80% of the singers that came to the studio would pick up the lyrics to READ during the recording... Almost all would forget the melody, and so far only a few that are directly involved in trainning would present something more than lyrics and melody defined.

So you can trust what you hear from your phone, its the reality. And it works on the other way around too. If its sounding good on the phone, you can bet that it will sound good when recorded with more care. An android cellphone is one of the most powerfull tools for anyone learning music, you have a multi-track recorder at your disposal, at any time, its a dream come true.

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2012-08-28 20:35:27

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#2 2012-09-01 22:48:57

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

Outstanding post and definitely worth the space, as you only briefly touched on this in your previous thread on recording.

Some of my best recordings and some of my worst recordings are on the same equipment. Usually, the Fame CM-1 studio condenser mic, which is not expensive, at all. In fact, the only song I can remember doing with the Sennheiser is the "Heaven on their Minds" collab with my brother. Wait, I think I also recorded "Full Moon" with the Senheisser. Which also illustrates the example. It's not the equipment it's the material, specifically, the performance of me, the singer.

And I used to blame "problems" on equipment. But you are so right. The recordings that I have done that received great compliments came from single takes, usually first takes. Because all the "work" was not in recording but in getting the song into my voice. By that, I mean, having the performance down tight.

"Heaven on their Minds" - I have been singing that song for decades, often accompanying myself on guitar. So, basically, I've already got the muscle memory for that song.

"Full Moon" - A few listens and reading the lyrics for the first time as I sang the song in sections. First take, only take. Never heard of the band or the song before it was proposed to me by another to sing it, simply because I have the range to sing it. A song in a style I don't really follow with a lyric that's not in my comfort zone. Mixed post-recording by someone who knows how to do it. And I broke my own rule #1, don't try to sound like the original singer. Anyway, point being, if I had taken the time, maybe a few weeks to a month to rehearse it, iron out rough spots or change things to what works for me, it would have been a better recording. What I did was similar to getting up in a bar on a dare to sing this at a karaoke event.

And most people here are not interested in karaoke dares. They want to hear pro performance and quality.

Nor is it wrong to try a style one does not normally do. Not only have I wanted to do "Nessun Dorma," but I would also like to do "Rich Girl" by Hall & Oates, which is R & B, a style I don't normally do. But I think I have a voice similar to Darryl Hall (no, I don't sound like him) and it's just a really good song with a lyrical story I can get into.

"You're a rich girl and you've gone too far.
And you know it don't matter, anyway.
You can rely on the old man's money,
You can rely on the old man's money..."

The next lyric is a word sometimes used as a curse and I am trying to control my use of profanity, so bear with me on that.

Which leads me to a recording mantra, akin to what you have said. Fix your problems in performance. You cannot fix it in recording. A more crass way to express it, you cannot polish a turd.

Now, that doesn't stop others from criticizing based on equipment or some errant sound issues. That's just going to happen and I can accept that. Funnily enough, the last criticism given to me was not the singing but the sound quality he thought was deficient in my mic. I can definitely live with that. And it proves your point. A good performance survives any tech problems, even any post recording mixing problems.A diamond shines, even in the dirt.

The other problem with cd's, especially modern ones is standard practices in production, regardless of the quality of the musician, and a singer is a musician. You are creating music with your voice, your instrument.

First off, and people really hate it when I say this (yes, pretend you don't see it or hear it and it really will go away and not exist, yeah, right) recording engineers and producers for professional record labels autotune everything. Period. Paragraph. New book. Everything.

In addition to that, there is the mastering process. This is after levels and tuning are completed by the recordist. The mastering engineer then shoves everything through more compression and volume adjustment, usually making the recording louder so that it will sound relatively the same whether played on your home stereo, car stereo, or a boom box in an automotive garage, all of which are less than ideal listening environments. And, these days, they really need to mix to i-pod, since that is many people are listening to music. Either i-pod or earbuds plugged into their smartphone.

It's bad enough that some of the finer dynamics are lost in all of this digital mish-mash. But there is also an effect of the human ear. The loudest sound gets prominence. It's called masking. And a good recording engineer mixes at low volume levels. Because the human ear often interprets louder as better, even when it is not. Then the master guy turns around and makes it all loud.

It could be said that a recording engineer can make a bad singer sound good by comping the vocal track. But standard practice in pro studios is to comp the vocal, even of an excellent singer. Even James Lugo's behind the scenes video shows that. His singing was fine but the recordist would not shut up until he has 4 takes of each part and will patch together what he thinks sounds best, creating a vocal line that never existed in reality.

Back to the quality of material. Some of my best recordings, those that brought me compliments, were recorded in a single take, on the first take. And one of most well received ones was first take, only take, no false starts or startovers. Click "record" and let it fly. Because the prep and the work is in the learning of the performance, rather than high-priced equipment or even expert mixing strategies.

Though, given the chance, I wish I could record one of the covers in either your set-up or Keith's set-up, with someone at the board dialing in and out. As it is, now, I sing and export to mp3 and someone, usually Keith, does the best that he can with it.

Last edited by ronws (2012-09-01 23:07:13)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#3 2012-09-01 22:50:53

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

On other thing about level of tech. One of my better received renditions of "Highway to Hell" came from my Tascam 4-track analog recorder and I finally had a way to convert that to a digital file. An ancient tape machine with something that could aspire to be a karaoke mic and the song was well received because the performance was locked in, so to speak.

In fact, here it is, wihle we wait for you to record on your cellphone.

"Highway to Hell - Analog" recorded on Tascam 4-track (uses a cassette). Cheapie mic that is not even as good as what is used with karaoke machines.

https://www.box.com/s/1ee36bf5f2f248be3e57

Edited to add: the analog recording was made a few years before I came to the forum. And I came to this forum in May(?) 2010.

Last edited by ronws (2012-09-01 23:08:27)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#4 2012-09-09 01:10:58

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

I know we all like to pride ourselves in our work ethic. We work so hard, so to speak. But hammering a way with the voice does not yield better results. It yields a tired voice. So, part of the prep for a performance is to be well rested and in the right frame of mind. I'm not discounting the technical work beforehand. Even scales to iron out a rough spot. We could even do comp takes where we try each part separate. But I still believe in rehearsing it into one whole track. Regardless of how professional producers always comp the tracks. The performance has to be first. And live, performance is not a comp track. So, I always endeavor to sing a song all the way through. The one song I received the harshest criticism for was not a single, unbroken take. It was sections, with the idea that the separate sections could be mixed separately, if so desired. All it did was ruin the legato of the whole sing and I didn't have a cohesive vocal line.

So, again, fix the performance before recording.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#5 2012-09-09 14:42:06

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

I have been reading the bio/history of one of my favorite bands, Uriah Heep. For those who don't know, they had hits with "Gypsy," "Easy Livin' ", "Stealin' ", "July Morning", "Magician's Birthday," and a few others. Anyway, the point I want to make refers to crafting the performance before recording. Which they did until the "Wonderwold" album. They were always a live band. More comfortable onstage. And their viewpoint, their work ethic was to deliver the same intensity of a show, whether it was a few hundred at the Marquee in London, or 20,000 at the Astrodome in Houston. The audience was always important, regardless of head count.

And this translated into the recording of their earlier albums.They went into recording with an aspect of take no prisoners. Give it all, as if you were on the stage. And that is what we should do in crafting our performance for a recording. Even though we can do a lot of technical things and better equipment and editing strategies can result on better "production values" of the recording, itself, it means nothing without the first rate performance, to start. Sing it as if you were at the Texas Jam with literally 60,000 screaming maniacs. Or the Download Festival (formerly Monsters of Rock, still held at Castle Donnington.) Or Poor David's Pub in Dallas, Texas. Maximum capacity, 150, including staff.

That is, a performance can have a sense of "legato" or line, if you will. An album can do the same thing. By the time "Wonderworld" was being recorded, the band was fragmenting, each lost in their own misery of addiction. Lost in their own egos, now that fame had touched them in a big way. David Byron was a prima donna and a raging drunk. Ken Hensley, the principal songwriter and keyboardist, was jealous of the media and stage attention that David would get. Gary the bassist was dwindling fast from his own addiction. The cohesion was gone. And it showed.

So, when we prepare to record, we should have the song down, as a whole. And sing it "for real." Yes, that is more a thing of perspective than the actual mechanics. But it is an important part of the prep. For a stellar performance shines through, regardless of level of tech and recording skills and editing ability or gear.

Last edited by ronws (2012-09-09 14:44:35)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#6 2012-09-10 04:08:41

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

The following post will be a quote from someone with a lot of experience with recording and audio engineering, that also points in the same direction:

Last edited by FelipeCarvalho (2012-09-10 04:14:20)

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#7 2012-09-10 04:10:00

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

Trivia question: what band recorded more number 1 hits than any other? More than the Beatles, Elvis, The Stones, and the Beach Boys combined?

A: The Funk Brothers, the then-anonymous house band/songwriting/arranging team behind Motown.

Home recordists take heart: all of the Detroit-era Motown records were made in the small (originally dirt floor) basement of Berry Gordy's humble Detroit home. I am paraphrasing from the film "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" when I say: "people always wanted to know where that 'Motown Sound' came from. They thought it was the wood, the microphones, the floor, the food, but they never asked about the musicians."

I am paraphrasing again when I say that it was widely thought that it didn't matter who the singer was, anything that came out of "Hitsville USA" (namely, that dirt-floor basement) was made of "hit." Smokey Robinson, Diana Ross, the Temptations, The Four Tops, the Jackson 5, Stevie Wonder, Mary Wells, and so on were basically just rotating front people for the greatest band in popular music history.

I don't care what kind of party you're throwing or what the crowd is like, if you put on "Bernadette" or "Uptight Everything's Alright" or "standing in the shadows of love" or "WAR" or any of those old Motown numbers, people will get out of their seats and start dancing and clapping (maybe on the wrong beats, but whatever). Nobody knows the lyrics, nobody can hum the guitar riff, and it has nothing to with the production. The music bypasses the higher cognition functions and directly communicates with the hips and the hairs on the back of your neck.

The guitars are indistinct, the keys are hard to make out, the horns and winds vanish into the background, James Jamerson's incomparable bass symphonies are the definition of "muddy," but the unified whole is impossible not to respond to. One cannot be human and not react to "Heard it through the grapevine," "Heatwave," "Tracks of my Tears," "Shotgun," and so on.

This is American-style popular music at its apex, and unlike nostalgic hippie music or punk purists, all you have to do is to throw it in the CD changer to hear its real power and musical accomplishment. No explanation or cultural context required.

My point is not that everyone should aspire to sound like Motown. In fact I do not think it is possible or desirable to re-capture such a sound with any kind of production techniques. And my point is definitely not to argue that they were "good for their time" or anything like that. Throw it in the CD changer and see if it isn't just as good today. If you think it sounds "old" or doesn't hold up, ignore what I'm saying.

My point is that you could not MAKE a bad recording of this band. The recordings ARE bad-- they are muddy, overloaded, indistinct, midrangey, all of it. And you could put those recordings into a cassette player and record the output of an old 6x9 car speaker through a cheap mic and then replay it at a wedding and it would STILL get more people dancing than anything on the top 40 from any era.

The production does not make the song. The preamps DEFINITELY don't make the song. Hell, the SONG doesn't even make the song, in modern popular music. It's the performance.

The rest is just flash and sizzle.


Part of material writen by Yep

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#8 2012-09-10 04:12:27

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

And if you only have the performance to relly on, what will it be if even the basic execution is failing?

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#9 2012-09-15 17:48:56

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

And finally, my points with all this talk about the obvious:

1 - Trust what you are hearing, you ears are as capable as those of any other human on the face of the earth, no matter if is a famous producer, sound engineer or the most technicall bad ass singer of history. What needs polishing is you capability to interpret and trust the information your ears provide you, this takes time and will only happen if you use them.

2 - With the "recording revolution" we have nowdays, with a few hundred dollars you can have high quality recording with full automation, multi-channel, high quality audio processing, including dynamics and reverbs, all the things one could possibly need to do cristal clear recordings of whatever you want to. Which results in two things, both very good in my opinion:
- You have no longer super high resource barriers to stop you from doing your art;
- This applies to everyone, so recording quality is finally totally removed from the equation, actually there are people who look for lesser quality media in order to recall a "nostalgic feel" of the past, vinyl noise is the first that cames to my mind (I like it :D).

Thus, guess what we are left with? The musical content.

And lo and behold, music is actually being teached, its just a matter of looking for instruction. So you have a choice: to learn, or not. Just like those who you want to reach with your music. All this is very simple, its not magic, its not divine inspiration, its plain and old hard work and results, as with any other job you may want to have. Either that, or just hoping to be lucky.

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#10 2012-12-17 02:39:08

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

Or born with a natural talent for poetry, like Scott Weiland. The guy even thinks poetically.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#11 2012-12-19 18:30:46

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

Cool piece of text from a guy that has some experience recording comercial grade material, just look to what are his concerns when tracking a vocalist.

http://pipelineaudio.net/hammering-vocals-in-5-steps/

Awesome haha, although his dismiss for dynamics is something most coachs will not agree, he is absolutely correct on the importance of these three items. I recomend doing it on all your repertoire, even the blabla thing if you dint have a teacher to train you.

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#12 2012-12-23 00:17:19

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

even the blabla thing if you dint have a teacher to train you.

Actually, I do that already with songs on the radio where I don't know all of the lyrics. In practice, it is more important for me to keep my intonation and tuning up than to get bogged down by the lyrics.

Whether I have a "teacher to train me" or not.
:cool:

The author certainly seems to have a problem with whole band, and certainly admits to editing the other instruments.

From what I can see, with my own experience and that of the book I have been reading about the Wrecking Crew, playing live and recording in the studio are two different animals. Live, one can get away with a lot of mistakes and the audience mostly won't notice. In the studio, it's as obvious as a neon sign.

However, back in the good ole days of analog recording, some of my favorite recordings were recorded "live" in studio. One take, separate channels for each instrument, usually with the band playing together, though the drummer might be separated by sound baffles to avoid bleed-through. Led Zep's first album was recorded like that, in 30 hours. That's less than a week. And they had not decided on a name, yet. It was going to be the new version of the Yardbirds, since Jimmy owned the name. But a conversation with friend Keith Moon, where he had said that the quartet could expect to have troublesome live performances led to the band name. He said, "you will probably have some shows like ours and it will crash like a lead zeppelin." But I digress.

I actually agree with the author, in spite of his sarcastic and pompous and arrogant tone. He makes really good points and he is right. If you have the rhythm of the song, that solves a lot. Nothing creates a crash like an awkward phrase of words.

On the other hand, I like "mistakes," as well. This might be before your time but there was a wonderful song called "Eve of Destruction" recorded by Barry McGuire.

The song was actually written by a recording engineer about his doubts and problems with the Viet Nam war, among other things. But the song was strong. Barry McGuire, who was treasured for his gruff sound in another band that had already passed its prime, was invited to sing the scratch track. a guide vocal for other instruments to finish.

Barry was sight-singing from a hand-written lyric sheet and had never heard the song before. At the one point in the song where you hear him growl, that was frustration because he could not read the lyric and was losing his place. His phrasing was all over the place. So, they finished the take. The next morning, the promotions guy wanted to hear it. Unknown to others, he ran to the biggest radio station in Los Angeles and they played it, as is. And the phones would not stop ringing.

So, they kept Barry's "messed up" vocal track. And that recording literally went to #1 on the US charts.

Which is not meant to support haphazard vocals or disagree with your point, Felipe, or that of the author. But sometimes, art happens. As it is, Barry was already a strong improvisational vocalist, otherwise, it really would have been ruined and would have ended up in the trash can.

Last edited by ronws (2012-12-23 00:19:57)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#13 2012-12-24 10:49:28

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

Oh yeah, indeed. And if you are scoring some top ratings on the charts, you can safely skip this over, it wont be necessary.

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#14 2012-12-24 15:08:54

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

Just remember my last sentence, which actually agrees with your point. The quality of the singer, even on a messed up take, resulted in a number one hit. Again, you are right, having the skills and a good performance strategy, even improvisational, makes a recording worthy, even with less than stellar production values.

And I would not skip over the details of your thread.

I have started a thread about my all thumbs approach to recording. And I do some stuff. And yes, the timing is off, precisely proving the point of the author in the article you linked. So, one of my next things to learn is how to use the click track function of audacity. first, as a base for recording the instrument(s). And keeping it for the duration of the recording. After final mix, the click track can be deleted, or at least "mute" during exportation to output file (usually mp3.)

Just the same, it's okay to save mistakes. Either as a learning process or something worthy of "art." I like the way Jack Nicholson said in Batman. "I don't know if it's art but I like it."


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#15 2012-12-24 20:28:42

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

Yeah not really a remark, the quality was there and does not need necessarily a strict guide to be produced.

But speaking of audacity and timming. Audacity seems a bit nasty regarding interface latency and drivers support. If the latency is incorrect, no ammount of effort will make it fit timmings...

Try giving Reaper a go, metronome is one click away and its very easy to track vocals, Audacity was supposed to be a simple program to use but I find it a real mess of functions all over the place. I could not work with it at all.

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#16 2012-12-24 23:01:04

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

Yeah not really a remark, the quality was there and does not need necessarily a strict guide to be produced.

But speaking of audacity and timming. Audacity seems a bit nasty regarding interface latency and drivers support. If the latency is incorrect, no ammount of effort will make it fit timmings...

Try giving Reaper a go, metronome is one click away and its very easy to track vocals, Audacity was supposed to be a simple program to use but I find it a real mess of functions all over the place. I could not work with it at all.

Amen. I have forehead prints on the desk from banging my head on it. Latency is absolutely crappy, no matter what setting. In my recording thread, I adjusted that, to no avail. The only way I can record is one can off, pan hard right. and sing or play along with playback. And then, to make matters worse, and please believe me that I can have good timing, audacity will often record the second guitar track, where I play a solo, for example, at a different tempo. Then, I have to take that solo track, tempo adjust .01 percent and then time shift the track to line up with a visual cue.

Not to mention that if you put an effect on a track, it is on the whole track.

And I only have so much money. I could either save for some singing lessons or save for some better software or, at least, a better mic interface. Something with a suitable mic preamp, rather than the guitarface II interface.

Some think that I should spend the money on singing lessons, rather than equipment. :D

I am not surpised that you do not use Audacity. Equally, I am not surprised that your recordings are good. Not just from the standpoint of you having a well-rehearsed line to record, but that you are using better equipment and recording tools than I have.

I know the point of this thread is that stellar performance shines through lackluster equipment and recording strategy. Just the same, a song sounds much better on fm stereo than it does on am mono. Can I get an agreement on that, just for a moment, in the spirit of Christmas?
:cool:


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#17 2012-12-24 23:05:09

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

To that end of better recording software, a friend who helped me with my new original song also sent me his old 250 G usb driven hard drive with Cubase 5 on it. But my ancient computer will not handle it, in spite of me taking on updates. It still will not install. So, I am stuck with Frankenstein, my personal name for my computer, built out of obsolete spare parts.

So, my next option might be to see if I can get a decent used digital recording set-up for really cheap. And then usb that into a sound file.

I have also realized, in my recording thread, that I have been approaching eq on the track from the wrong perspective. And have no excuse, considering the books on recording that I have read. I realize that I have been cutting my voice like crazy and not getting the full sound. The best recordings I have done are where I play guitar and sing at the same time and the only thing I do to that is some compressor to deal with analog into digital, with no eq adjustments.

Am I a product of my generation? My first car was a 1968 Ford Mustang with a V8 289 ci small block, sold to me from my grandparents. And the original Philco am radio. Later, I rebuilt a fm to am converter box, which allowed fm stations to play through it, but it still sounded like am radio. the original speakers were a fond and distant memory and all I had was an added speaker I wired in and tap-screwed to the dash. However, that motor would punch like a scalded ape. I beat the crap out of a Cutlass 442 and a BMW, mainly because I have cajones made of stainless steel. The only person to beat me in a rat race was a friend who had a 69 Mustang El Grande with a 302 ci Cobrajet. But I digress. Why does what sounds okay in my ears end up later sounding like something on 70's radio.

I need to re-educate myself.

Last edited by ronws (2012-12-24 23:13:09)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#18 2012-12-25 15:12:15

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

ronws ok man haha. Still, IMO, the real problem in this is that your concentration goes away into other stuff that has nothing to do with singing.

Reaper is not free, but it has a 60 day try-out period that never expires, it will just bug you for 5 seconds and go away. I think right now the download is 5Mb long, yes mega, not giga, and is my tool of choice when tracking and recording, I have Cubase too, which to me is better to do midi work.

If I had to go through the trouble of panning, ajusting timmings and so on in every single thing I recorded, I would just use a cellphone and record it. Id rather have nasty digital clip than to have to worry about this kind of thing.

I will see if I can put up a Reaper tuturial to do simple vocal recordings and latency ajustment. Which is your interface again? Guitarface or Guitarface 2? You also say you have a Seinheiser dynamic mic right? How do you plug it on the interface? What kind of drivers are you using on Audacity?

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#19 2012-12-25 17:10:20

slstone
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

I have to agree with the original post here about technique and ability having to do alot with the result.
Example, a few years back I had a friend who was learning to play drums. He had kind of a crappy kit, until
after saving money for awhile, he asked me to take him to the music store to buy a Tama  kit. He was and probably
still is, a huge Metallica fan. In his attempts to sound like Lars, he would beat the crap out of his drums, trying to get a 'big' sound. I would bet money on the fact that he went through skins faster than we guitar players break strings. I tried explaining to him that good playing, not arm muscles, make for good playing. I told him that Lars get his big sound from microphones.
As a sad ending to that story, he later sold his kit and stopped playing just as he was starting to get good.
I have said in previous posts, there is no excuse for poor technique.
My own personal opinion is that when people post their music, they should take the time to practice it enough and work on it to try to perfect it as much as possible, instead of posting a a quickie that they just whipped out.
To me, I would rather hear what people can do after putting in some effort. Kind of like show me what you can do when you work hard on a song, and not just whipping out in your spare time and posting it. I know I may anger a few by making these comments, but if people seriously want to become pro, they should consider this.

I know some will tell me there are those here who don't aspire to become pro, but from most of the efforts I see here from people, there are quite a few who are trying to do the very best they can to learn the skills and it shows.
My intent is not to anger or upset anyone, but to call it like I see it and to give helpful advice.
I am one of those who is of the thought: if you want someone to tell you how awesome you are even if you stink, that is what your family and friends are for. You come here for helpful advice on how to increase your abilities, not to have us blow smoke up your skirt. Which is why I only offer advice either on technique, equipment or preparation issues. I don't give opinions on people's singing individually here, because most are thin skinned and are easily offended. Therefore, I leave reviewing up to others.
The old saying, "how do you get to Carnegie Hall? practice, practice, practice." The advice doesn't say, just get out there and wing it.
Ok. I am ready to be slammed now on how wrong and arrogant I am. Fire away.


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#20 2012-12-26 17:27:54

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

slstone wrote:

The old saying, "how do you get to Carnegie Hall? practice, practice, practice." The advice doesn't say, just get out there and wing it.
Ok. I am ready to be slammed now on how wrong and arrogant I am. Fire away.

I must resist the urge to use that last line against you (as a joke.)

So, let me repeat one that was used on me. I would tell my friend, Lee, "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful." (From the shampoo commercial with Isabella Rosselini, in her heyday.)

And he would say, "Well, I hate you and it has nothing to do with you being beautiful, or not."

I would add that the way to Carnegie is "practice, practice, practice" of the right thing. Not just practice of any old thing, if I may make that distinction.

I could write all day long about how long I have played guitar. But you, Scott, could verify that. Felipe, if you didn't know by now, Scott (slstone) is my real brother (same mother and father.) Aprroximately 2 years younger than I am, which doesn't mean anything, just a perspective.

We moved to Texas in October of 1974. I was 10, Scott was almost 8 (having been born in November. And yes, Scott just had a birthday last month. Receiving anything from AARP, yet? :D  )

My mother had an old acoustic student guitar given to her by our father. He originally started college at the University of South Dakota as a music major, before transferring to UCLA. She never did much with it. The grandparents had an old Silvertone classical with 3 strings left on it. Anyway, we moved to Richardson, Texas while our grandparents' house was finishing construction in Plano. On Belt Line Road, near US 75 was a small, privately owned music store. And she got me a new set of nylon strings and Mel Bay's book of Chords. And my step-grandfather taught me how to read sheet music. "Figure it out for yourself."

After 38 years, I am still not the greatest guitar player that ever was. Plenty are way better than I am. I think Scott even beats me out for that honor. A co-worker named Bruce could play rings around me. But I could do something he can't. I can do the Ab5 in "Dream On" and loud enough to make him flinch. It was in the 80's that I decided I was more of a singer than a guitar player. And, good or bad, polished or not, that is how I identify myself. It's not a "limitation," just honesty.

Which doesn't make you, Scott, any less talented of a singer just because you play so many instruments. It makes me proud, and I allow myself pride on this occasion, to brag to others, even here and elswhere, how talented you are. That you are more talented than I am, and in more ways than one. For a long time, I have been the jack of all trades and, of course, an electrician. Now, in my life, it is better for me, personally, to concentrate more on the few things at hand, then trying to handle so many others. Sometimes, it's better to do one thing well than a bunch of things "okay." Or, maybe, because I am older, I am losing brain cells and need to focus on not so many things at once. :lol:

And the art that you make is so complex and beautiful. Your writing and production is so rich and layered. If Phil Spector was producing heavy metal, he would need to learn some things from you.

As opposed to my sparing, bare-bones AABA contemplations, usually on one instrument. I draw stick figures, you paint paintings, so to speak.

And part of "all thumbs" journey in recording is to start using less thumbs and more fingers. And one of the first things is re-education of my ear. And we all can hit a good note. What separates the better recording is refusal to allow an off note to stay.

While we're on the subject of perfection of performance before recording, often, in the review section mostly, we seem to be sensitive enough to tell what a singer is doing, regardless of how they recorded or on what they recorded. As if to prove the point that equipment and editing strategy do not help or hinder a performance. Crap is crap, no matter what tech magic you throw at it (you can't polish a turd (mojon) and conversely, a really good performance is there, even on a cellphone recording.

But for example, if a mic was noisy that day or the singing very loud and loads of compression are used, some are sensitive to that and comment on that. In so many words, "it was hard for me to hear the dynamics of the song with so much compression going on." Which means that equipment and editing are having an effect on what we hear, just as Franco Tenelli mentioned. A note may have had more "oscuro" than you can hear because 4:1 compressor (run twice) ironed it out to something else. So then, someone says, "the note needs to be darker, it is too bright." Well, it was probably balanced well-enough in the room of recording but the artifact created by a post-recording compressor plug-in did change the dynamics of the note. Most often I have found that compressor removes the dynamics of volume and tone and replaces it with changes in "intensity," though I could be wrong. And I am about as "idiot" as they come.

So, my most idiot-proof recordings are when I record on one mic, playing guitar and singing at once. A "live" recording, as I like to call it. For I am used to balancing my voice against a guitar in any room that I am in (I've been doing that a really long time.) And when I do recordings like that, I rarely do anything to the track except for some minimal compressor (high threshold, low ratio,) which seems to smooth analog into digital. In a few books I have read, it is noted that as much as 50 percent of an analog signal is lost in translating to digital (literally turning a sine wave into a square wave.) And it seems with high threshold low ratio, there is less whoosh, less compressor pumping artifact.

Also, recording the guitar and vocal at once on one mic side-steps audacity's latency and tempo problems. No adjustments necessary. And so, with those, if the singing was right, or acceptible to my standards, which maybe poor in comparison to others, there's not much more to it than to record, export, post. That is, all the work that could make it a recording worth listening is done before clicking on "record." Once the track starts recording, it's "show time."

In that case of everything on one mic, it really does require a good performance before recording. There's no fixing just one part. There is no editing of just the vocal track and patch in a better pass on a note. There is no separate eq and echo for the instrument(s) and something different for the voice to be blended later. It's all painted with one brush.

We have a few new members that come in and claim to be hobbyists. Not looking to be pro. And the others who are now in bands. And all points in between.

One friend of mine, someone who has helped me immensely, used to be in the forum. And has since moved on to doing his own thing. And quite well. He is writing and recording. Another friend is out in the clubs, doing phenomenal covers (he used to have an Iron Maiden tribute band but is now singing with a wider repertoire.) And studied classically, as well, even before he was a member of this forum.

I am probably more like the singer in the article by that recording engineer. I am better off concentrating on my singing and let the pro recording guy handle the knobs and sliders (figuratively.)
:)

"Ron, step away from the console. Go and take a leak, or whatever and come back and we'll try it again."


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#21 2012-12-26 17:37:07

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

As far as Audacity goes, a few others have used it with passable results. Not so much, for me. Invariably, when I record something with a separate vocal track and I export it "dry", as in no effects, not even volume boost, and send it to someone else to mix, it comes out better. And every single one of them, including you, Scott is NOT using Audacity.

Last edited by ronws (2012-12-26 17:37:47)


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#22 2012-12-27 00:27:24

slstone
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

My problem is that I am very anal when it comes to this. I am a perfectionist when it comes to music. I used to use and may still have somewhere, the same Porta 03 that you used to use. Back in the day, that made it a challenge to make a CD on your own because you could only transfer it to a digital domain via an ADAT machine which cost an additional arm to buy. Thus, with the inventiion of better equipment, we can now record digitally at home. Even with the PC you mention you have, you are still able to record on the computer which is more than we could do 20 years ago.
You mentioned how I play everything. The way I approach recording is this. Each instrument I play, when recording, I act like that part I am recording is the most important part in the song. as you mentioned in our musical history, I started playing piano at age 9, guitar at 14(you should know, you loaned me the rest of the money to buy my first acoustic, which I still have(Takamine)), bass later one(easy to learn due to tunings the same as guitar). However, being a guitar player, I tend to write my bass lines like a guitarist would(and yes I use a pick to play bass).

As far as learning to sing, came from many years of singing along to Maiden, Stryper, Yngwie, Helloween, Queensryche, etc. Bruce Dickinson, Michael Sweet, any singer Yngwie hired, Michael Kiske, Geoff Tate, these guys
were my teachers. I sang and sang until I could mimick their techniques exactly.
To me, I wasn't learning to copy other vocalists, I was learning technique, so that later when I wrote my own music, I would have the skills to really bring something to it.
I always write my material beyond my ability to play and sing. That way I force myself to become better.
To me, good enough isn't good enough. I personally need the wow factor.
As far as what equipment you have, I say do the best with what you have. But that also means to spend the time to learn what you have and stretch its ability to the edge.
My point was that too many people in my opinion, think that what they post in that one take sometimes doesn't sound practiced. What I mean by that is, when rehearsing before recording, work on where you will breathe, how you want to deliver each note. Put some thought into it. Work for it, so to speak. Push yourself. As mentioned, this is what I do with myself when I write and/or record, otherwise, it is just another karaoke performance.
Just because the backing track is karaoke, doesn't mean the vocals have to be.
As an example, look what happened when I asked you to re-record the vocals for Heaven on their Minds.
You did, you took my advice on things to make it better and voila. You got tons of compliments for that performance.
in essence, you worked harder on it, thus making for a better vocal.
Anyway, gotta get that dang printer working write to print on my CD's so I can start selling them. lol
Oh and the thing about singing and playing at the same time. That can be challenging as well. Go listen again to my song, 'Sands of Time'. Listen to how fast the rhythm guitar is during the main part of the song. Imagine playing that and singing it at the same time. Did that for hours and hours when I had band members together.
If you want to go hear it again, click on the link in my signature that says SMTV.

p.s. thanks for your kind words, bro, I appreciate them very much.


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http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/slstone
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/book- … d611487291
http://www.slstonemusic.com
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#23 2012-12-27 00:56:35

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

What others may not know, and since it is just you, Felipe, and me in this thread, what Felipe doesn't know is that on the second vocal take (there were two,) I put in some Justin Hawkins type of notes that you found pitchy and, just as important, didn't really fit the song, even if I was to re-record those with better pitch. You suggested leaving them out and I said, in so many words, yeah, just leave them out. (not counting my prima donna concerns over my "babies.") You really got to be producer putting up with a "temperamental" singer. Sorry about your luck.

Just the same, that was only two takes. And I was pitchy at the end. Even I can hear it and bless you for not pitch-correcting it, even though it did prove to be a popular download from the filesharing site. (I get email notices, especially from box, as to what gets previewed or downloaded from the previous day. Trivia, the most reviewed and downloaded one to date is "Ramble On" by Led Zeppelin.) (go figure, totally low tech, live, my "campfire version.")

And you most certainly did not edit it on Audacity. So yeah, while what I have is conceivably an upgrade from my Tascam 4-track analog, I have a recording from that which a number of people liked, even as good as any of my computer recording.

And yes, I know how anal you are, now, about finished product. For example, how long has "Book of Shadows" been in post-production? That's not an insult or a slam, just proof of your own statement.

Totally unrelated to you. "Appetite for Destruction" had bargain basement production values and sounds like it was recorded on my 4 - track. And was the largest selling debut rock album of its time, breaking all previous records.

At the other end is Chinese Democracy. 13.5 years in recording and production. Axl had a studio built just to record this album. And it only made triple platinum worldwide. And it was the most "perfect" GnR album to date, with all the anal-retentiveness Axl could muster. And it's a great album, too. Not knocking perfection. I like it and listened to it exclusively for 5 months after I got it. My favorite, if you ask me right off the bat, is "Better." Turns out that's Axl's favorite, too. Though I like the clean high note he does in "IRS."

The album might have gone farther but Geffen was bought out by Interscope, who did nothing for GnR. So,  Axl had to arrange a sole distribution deal with Best Buy, who were not the biggest fans, either, just to get it out there. The triple plat is from fan base, alone. No promotion or advertising.

Because, as always, the music was astounding, whether recorded in a crappy studio or one custom built for the music and labored over for over a decade.

And Scott, you and I may have different approaches. One statement that stuck with me like ugly on ape came from that scottish lady, Annie Lennox. She and Dave Stewart were on a late night talk show and did a few songs without the stage band. She said, "if you cannot play the song on one instrument, like piano and guitar, and one voice, then it's not a song."

I can't seem to get rid of that.

Nothing wrong with orchestration, fuller arrangements. And there are a few times where I added a guitar solo to something I did and what I did was too busy and distracted attention. And I had to be tough with myself and either re-do it more simply, or just get rid of it. And other times, I left a bit of show-off stuff in and found it distracting, later on. And I leave it there, as a lesson to myself as to what not to do. To remember that whatever I do should serve the song, not my own glory or pyortechnical skill, whatever that may be.

Such as the screechy high notes I did for HOTM. Totally unnecessary and your suggestion to leave them out made it a stronger piece. That is actually perfection by doing less, not more.

And again, you did not edit it on Audacity. Word up .....

Last edited by ronws (2012-12-27 01:01:35)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#24 2012-12-27 01:29:45

slstone
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

Even I have altered some of my music to make it easier to play and sing. In the aforementioned 'Sands of Time', notice how the guitar riff is slightly different during the verse than the section preceding it. Same key, similar riffs, but not the same. Originally, I was playing the riff the same throughout. It proved to be a big challenge playing it that way whilst singing, so I altered it slightly to make it a little easier to play and sing at the same time.

Perhaps some people may try to save some money to buy some recording time to record their own music to get a more polished feel to it. I know this is a challenge. Ot just come to Maine and I will record ya, lol.

btw.just as a side note. We are selling our current house. I am buying some unimproved land in a town 1/2 hour away and building a house from scratch. By the time we are done, we will be mortgage free...yay. Point being I will be building a new studio. Right now it is in a room that was converted(bedroom that I added a soundbooth to).

In the new house, my studio will be built from scratch. I will take pics and post them when it happens for anyone who wants to see.

btw, i have finished recording some collaborations, just waiting on video content from the other vocalist.
I will leave a teaser for you. It's a Nightwish song. And a Kamelot song. Music sounds big and bombastic. All played and recorded and mixed by me. I am singing Marco's part and my collaborating partner is doing the female lead(yes, collaborator is female).
anywho.....

Last edited by slstone (2012-12-27 01:30:28)


Official Press Release - 'Book of Shadows' CD for sale now!
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/slstone
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/book- … d611487291
http://www.slstonemusic.com
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#25 2012-12-27 03:54:45

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

slstone wrote:

Ot just come to Maine and I will record ya, lol.

If I ever get up there, I will absolutely hold you to that. By the way, the other business partner in the company I work at has a house in Maine. Close enough that he can go to the fair that is in your town. I told him to look out for someone who kind of looks like me with a mane of long, red hair.  :D


slstone wrote:

btw.just as a side note. We are selling our current house. I am buying some unimproved land in a town 1/2 hour away and building a house from scratch. By the time we are done, we will be mortgage free...yay. Point being I will be building a new studio. Right now it is in a room that was converted(bedroom that I added a soundbooth to).

In the new house, my studio will be built from scratch. I will take pics and post them when it happens for anyone who wants to see.

Tough luck for Felipe, while we catch up on family business.  I remember you asking me electrical questions about that (specifically, feeding the detached building to be a recording studio.) Well, darn it, good for you and it will be awesome, of course, when you are finished.

All you others, eat your heart out. Scott has a vision and I am proud to be his brother.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#26 2012-12-28 19:45:30

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

Building a studio from scratch! Cool stuff :).

Did a similar project, but I used an existing room as the framework, although I prety much remade all the internal divisions...

Speaking of collabs and video sls, Ive been working on videos lately, but I really am getting kinda bogged down by video recording. I do lots of takes, with different approaches and we exchange ideas on the final version, are you guys overdubbing the videos, lip sync and all? Starting to consider leaving a cam on during all the work to save time.

Here is a problem I have right now, I sat down to record one of the songs a while ago and I did a scratch take of the vocals, turns out the scratch was choosen to be the final version and my collab part insists that I should not redo the take, problem is I dont have the video of that and I will have to lip sync the videos... Is there any simple way to do this and not look like an overdubbed chinese film? I am almost discarding it and doing it again :(

Last edited by FelipeCarvalho (2012-12-28 19:53:11)

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#27 2012-12-29 00:54:31

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

. Is there any simple way to do this and not look like an overdubbed chinese film? I am almost discarding it and doing it again :(

Go ahead and lyp-sync. And when you, mouth the lyrics in chinese. There's a long tradition of that.
:lol:


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#28 2012-12-29 20:57:19

slstone
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

Building a studio from scratch! Cool stuff :).

Did a similar project, but I used an existing room as the framework, although I prety much remade all the internal divisions...

Speaking of collabs and video sls, Ive been working on videos lately, but I really am getting kinda bogged down by video recording. I do lots of takes, with different approaches and we exchange ideas on the final version, are you guys overdubbing the videos, lip sync and all? Starting to consider leaving a cam on during all the work to save time.

Here is a problem I have right now, I sat down to record one of the songs a while ago and I did a scratch take of the vocals, turns out the scratch was choosen to be the final version and my collab part insists that I should not redo the take, problem is I dont have the video of that and I will have to lip sync the videos... Is there any simple way to do this and not look like an overdubbed chinese film? I am almost discarding it and doing it again :(

Hey Felipe,

Basically, yes, you want to lip synch. As far as the audio recording, let me tell you, once you have an awesome take recorded, there is a 99 % chance you won't be able to re-create it the same way(once while recording a guitar solo for one of my songs, I accidently did a pinch harmonic on it, in essence a mistake as I didn't intend to do it, but it sounded so good I decided to keep it in, but in attempts to record it again, I could never get it just right).
When it comes to filming, it is kind of like doing still photos, you need to exaggerate your mouth movements a little, especially if the clip is a long shot(distant from you). But not too much, you dont want to look like you are going to eat your audience, lol. It takes a little practice.
So good luck, can't wait to see it. Hope I helped a little.


Official Press Release - 'Book of Shadows' CD for sale now!
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/slstone
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/book- … d611487291
http://www.slstonemusic.com
Need music with which to sing along? 50% off All Services November Sale. Sign up now! http://stonecraftmusicstudio.com

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#29 2012-12-30 17:52:59

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

slstone wrote:

When it comes to filming, it is kind of like doing still photos, you need to exaggerate your mouth movements a little, especially if the clip is a long shot(distant from you). But not too much, you dont want to look like you are going to eat your audience, lol. It takes a little practice.
So good luck, can't wait to see it. Hope I helped a little.

I like audiences. They go well with ketchup. Though I have been trying Garland's Secret Six barbecue sauce recently. That one works good, as well, when eating an audience.

Sorry, it's just that your words gave me an image and I had to run with it. I have no shame .....


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#30 2013-01-08 23:20:59

guitargeorge
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

Felipe, I enjoyed that article from the recording engineer guy. Good link, thanks. :)

The bit about knowing the words made me smile :) I am currently working on an Iron Maiden cover (I will post it here when complete) called "To Tame A Land". It contains the lyrics:

He is the Kwizatz Haderach.
He is born of Caladan
And will take the Gom Jabbar.

LOL! :D

Last edited by guitargeorge (2013-01-08 23:24:02)


George can often be found playing electric stringy things, and singing... and then this happens

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#31 2013-08-27 20:00:01

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

I missed your post here george.

I understand what you mean, but due to my nerdness its not strange to me :P. This is a reference to Frank Herbert - Dune. Great book :). Paul Atreides, aka as Paul Muad'dib is the Kwizatz Haderach, Caladan is the homeworld of the Atreides, the Gom Jabbar is a poison needle used by the Bene Gesserit, some sort of paranormal witches that breed humans searching for the one who can become the Kwizatz Haderach.

On a test that he goes through in his early days, before becoming the "One", the Bene Gesserit Gaius Helen sticks his hand in box of pain threatening his life with the poison needle should he remove it from the box, while within the box the flesh of his hand is slowly burned out.

... I am totally fanatic by the series :P.

The land to be tamed is Dune, a nickname to the planet Arrakis, where a drug that gives paranormal habilities and allows space travel is found. The drug is known as "spice"... Enough spoilers :P

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#32 2013-08-29 01:00:33

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

I missed your post here george.

I understand what you mean, but due to my nerdness its not strange to me :P. This is a reference to Frank Herbert - Dune. Great book :). Paul Atreides, aka as Paul Muad'dib is the Kwizatz Haderach, Caladan is the homeworld of the Atreides, the Gom Jabbar is a poison needle used by the Bene Gesserit, some sort of paranormal witches that breed humans searching for the one who can become the Kwizatz Haderach.

On a test that he goes through in his early days, before becoming the "One", the Bene Gesserit Gaius Helen sticks his hand in box of pain threatening his life with the poison needle should he remove it from the box, while within the box the flesh of his hand is slowly burned out.

... I am totally fanatic by the series :P.

The land to be tamed is Dune, a nickname to the planet Arrakis, where a drug that gives paranormal habilities and allows space travel is found. The drug is known as "spice"... Enough spoilers :P

I tried reading the books and got thirsty. Herbert was so very much like Dickens in describing just how dry the dune planet was. A case of where the movie, thanks to fine actors, was better than the book. Because much of Frank Herbert's over-zealous description of scenery could be accomplished by excellent photography.

My favorites in the movie were Gordon Sumner, Patrick Stewart, and Kyle MacLaughlin.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#33 2013-08-29 05:45:10

Owen Korzec
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

I guess I totally missed this old thread that Ron just brought back from the dead?

I would like to clarify something. I forget what I said way back in the thread Felipe's referring to, but I am not at all implying that the quality of a recording as a whole comes entirely from the production, or the equipment, or whatever. Of course the source has a huge impact. Much bigger than what you do with it after. Generally speaking the earlier stages are what are more important to get right. But that doesn't mean that the source is only determining factor of professional vs non-professional. Every stage of the process needs to be of great quality. But in my experience, that also means, if you can't get full quality in one stage of the process, you can make up for it a bit with what you do in the other stages. Each stage has a different percentage of impact and I don't even want to get into that discussion because it's too subjective.

It should also be noted that each stage of the process has a particular sound. A poorly performed song is obvious. A poorly mixed song is obvious. A poorly mastered song is obvious. They all create the impression of lesser quality, but they are not the same. If one is ever looking for a reason why x recording doesn't sound professional, it could be caused by any variable in the process. Could be the performance. Could be the acoustics. Could be the recording. Could be the gear. Could be the take selection. Could be the production. Could be the arrangement. Could be the song. Could be the editing. Could be the mixing. Could be the mastering. And so on...

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#34 2013-08-29 11:49:15

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

ronws, I really love the book :). The movie is awesome too, Patrick Stewart is great, and he somehow does not age, or maybe he looked old back then, dunno.

Owen this time the grave digger was me. :p

Yes Owen, my point with this is mainly that the human factor is the determinant one, and that pop songs have focus on the performance, the audience does not care for how complex and clever your harmonies are.

And performance in its turn must come from somewhere. If its not present during the tracking, it will need to be added by other means, and again this depends on human skill.

Today, with a simple opamp, you can make at home a pre-amp that is better than all the gear that was around on the 70s and even 80s. For less than $30...

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#35 2013-08-30 01:15:54

ronws
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

And Felipe, you are spot-on correct, from your first thread on recording. Fix the performance, not the recording. One cannot polish a mojon. But if the performance of the song is right, then recording is just clicking on "record."

Though what I have learned, also, is that it is important to mix by ear, even more important that reading about processes in books on recording. That is, don't use compression just because it has been a standard practice. Or even reverb or echo. Use it only if it needs it.

Which requires us all to develope an ear toward professional production. As it as been discusssed, the audience here in the forum is expecting perfection, not impromptu recordings.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#36 2013-12-01 14:09:00

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Gear, Accoustics, and Recording Technique vs Execution and Production

Yes Owen, my point with this is mainly that the human factor is the determinant one, and that pop songs have focus on the performance, the audience does not care for how complex and clever your harmonies are.


Just a little something that reminded me of this thread and this particular part of it:



Commedy yes, but its the truth...

Last edited by FelipeCarvalho (2013-12-01 14:11:12)

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