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#1 2013-08-03 22:46:54

gilad
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From: Israel
Registered: 2012-10-09
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Starting to get a bit worried...

Hey Guys.

In the last few days, I noticed that when i get in my mid range to high, my voice stops, and all that comes out is air. I thought it was rest, so I made sure of getting at least 8 hours of sleep. DIdnt help. The next day the same. Did a day of vocal rest, and today still the same. Now when this happened a few days ago, it was after not singing/vocalizing for 4 days due to work. I have had this issue before, but way lighter. But now it sounds really bad. Anyone every experience the same?

Here is a sound clip of me doing an upscale siren using "Me"
http://soundcloud.com/user206400908/siren/s-ZHFaQ

Thanks guys.
:/

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2013-08-03 22:46:54

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#2 2013-08-03 23:02:12

Simon Magus
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Hey gilad. What were you doing before those 4 days off? Anything really strenuous that caused you discomfort? It just appeared out of nowhere?

1 day of vocal rest isn't really alot. The cords can take quite a while to go back to normal if they are in a swollen state. I would play it safe, schedule an ENT appointment for late in the week so they can put the scope down your throat (it's fun if you've never done it!). Until then, I'd go on complete vocal rest.

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#3 2013-08-04 06:43:42

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Hey Simon,

I recorded a sketch for a song.  Didnt feel anything serious though afterwords. I cant tell i have a problem until i vocalize in the mid-high range. I mean, I a dont have a sore throat, or any bad sensation in my throat...

ENT would be a good idea, except i am abroad for two weeks...

Vocal rest - I can do that.

Thanks
Gilad

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#4 2013-08-04 14:11:01

Owen Korzec
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Skipping training for a few days can really weaken your voice IME. This is not necessarily a fact just my own experience and not the experience of others such as Placido Domingo who purposely takes days off from vocalizing and has one of the strongest voices ever. Anyways, just work through it patiently and things will clear up in a few days

I say don't go on vocal rest. Do a lot of gentle vocalizing and gradually go more aggressive. The problems are likely due to skipping training and you need to slowly get your voice back in shape. Sort of like if you skip running for a few days it gets much harder again and you can't run as far but if you dont start running again you only make the problem worse if you start again and just be cautious after a few days you're back to normal.

I'm not a professional this is just what I'd do in your situation, knowing my own voice. But my voice is not yours.

If you haven't already, send Rob an email...he knows what he's doing way more than us forum members

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#5 2013-08-04 18:30:01

Simon Magus
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Owen makes some good points. We're not voice doctors and we don't have all the information to tell you what's going on. That's why I recommend seeing an ENT if you are getting worried. I'm a "better safe than sorry" type of person, so I'm just telling you what I would do. If anything, finding out your cords are in good shape will give you some confidence (and it's always cool to see them w/ the scope).

It is curious that the notes would suddenly disappear without explanation. I'm not familiar with how far along you are in your training. Do those notes usually come easy to you? Do you usually have access to head voice? If not it might just be a muscle coordination thing. What makes me slightly concerned is that notes blanking out like that is one symptom of nodules. It may be the recording (or your style) but I also thought I heard a slight fuzziness to the notes that were there. It would be unusual for that to creep up without any kind of indication prior, however. From what I know, nodules come through repeated wear and tear over a period of time and any other type of injury would have had an "oh s*** type of moment" haha. You mentioned that you were abroad...how's your hydration?

Either way, don't be too anxious about it. Either vocal rest or light vocalizations ("eees" "zzzzz"s etc) are good advice, imo. If the problem persists by the end of this week, I'd see a doctor. That's why I would schedule an appointment now for when you get back, and if the problem disappears you can always cancel.

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#6 2013-08-04 19:08:02

ronws
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

I only have my own experience, which may or may not be applicable. I offer it as suggestions in addition to seeing a doctor.

A few years ago, a number of people here were trying to sound like Brian Johnson. I never had much distortion or rattle in my voice, never much cared to. But then, I thought, maybe I am missing out on something. Maybe I should try this. So, without a teacher or coach in the same room as I was in, I tried what I thought was "false vocal fold" distortion.

And what I accomplished was this; strained muscles in the throat and swollen folds. I have a high tolerance for pain, so I don't remember much discomfort, if any. What I do remember is having no mid-range. A kind of flat low end. And a high note would sound like a tuneless whistle.

Twice.

Why? Because I am an idiot and thought that I did it wrong the first time and tried it again. And injured myself again.

And re-habbed myself with light, descending slides.

I am most specifically not saying you are doing anything like I did, Gilad. What I am saying is that either you have some non-painful strain in the muscles or you may have swollen folds, to an extent. And this could come from a number of reasons, from allergies and sinus drainage to acid reflux to some physical action totally unrelated to singing, to some systemic thing brought on by family medical history.

Let's hope it's just allergies.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#7 2013-08-04 22:02:00

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

This was my range about 6 months ago..

http://soundcloud.com/user206400908/voc … -1/s-rrHlS

It does sound a bit strained up in the top. maybe continuous exercising with wrong coordination caused this situation.

But as you can tell in the sound clip. I dont have this issue.

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#8 2013-08-04 22:54:54

Simon Magus
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

I just listened to "I can't believe" and I must say: it's beautiful! Your voice has an ethereal, crooner quality to it - very relaxed and pleasant to listen to.

It's possible that you might actually be too relaxed in your vocalization. In that clip from 6 months ago, it sounds like some notes have a breathy quality to them. I had the same issue when I was attempting to speed up my vibrato. I relaxed so much that my cords weren't coming together and air was leaking out between them. This caused me to go out of pitch. Air leaking out through the vocal cords causes some degree of irritation that can cause problems over time (and you wouldn't necessarily feel this). This is why speech therapists tell you not to whisper when you're recovering from a vocal injury. I also noticed that you begin some notes on an "H" sound. This is letting air escape through the vocal folds.

You can feel the vocal folds come together when you say "uh oh" like if something bad has happened. You don't want to take that feeling too far, though, because then it becomes a glottal shock. But very gently using that feeling as the "attack" on the onset of a pitch, you can get the cords to come together more. After making sure that your voice is in good shape, I would focus on that and support. Breathiness is something that you want to be able to use for effect to color your voice, but it shouldn't be the foundation of your vocal technique. Vocal exercises and warming up should have the cords firmly coming together (except falsetto exercises). 

Hope this helps! I'm sure you'll bounce back and be pumping out more wonderful originals once you get to the bottom of this.

Last edited by Simon Magus (2013-08-04 22:56:41)

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#9 2013-08-05 17:08:50

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Thank you very much Simon  :)

I emailed Mark Baxter who from my understanding is a professional vocal therapist, as well as a vocal coach. He heard my voice clip that I uploaded here, and says I should rest a few days, and then do very very light excercises. He says that this whole situation is because I push to much probably in my singing and its something that i have to un-train and train the right way. So, at the moment, still on rest although I can't really stop talking for days as I have to talk on the phone here and there for work.. But I rest alot.

Thanks again Simon.

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#10 2013-08-06 01:05:10

ronws
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

I have Baxter's survival manual. And he has tutorials on youtube that basically supplement that, including some rehab exercises. I think he's a good guy to get advice from.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#11 2013-08-06 01:17:56

Simon Magus
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Np, gilad. Please keep us updated as to your recovery!

I have taken 2 lessons with Mark Baxter, have emailed him several times, have his book, and have basically exhausted his website for every morsel of info I can find. haha. He is good at getting back to you, and is generally a nice guy. I do think that he might be a bit quick to diagnose at times (I don't know how he can say for sure what a problem is without seeing/hearing some of the people in his FAQs). In general, getting singers to ease up on their voices and relieve tension seems to be his M.O., and it's definitely a good one to have when it comes to most singers. Blowing too much air pressure is probably the most common cause of vocal problems out there. Just watch that air leakage once you start to lightly vocalize again - I'm sure Mark would tell you the same thing!

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#12 2013-08-07 01:31:05

ronws
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

I finally listened to both clips you showed in here, Gilad. Definitely listen to Mark Baxter. Do the light and soft stuff. It's what I did to recuperate from my own stupidity.

You will re-gain your fine control. In the first clip, your voice is sounding like mine did after I injured myself.

For at least two weeks after each injury, I would not sing. I would only do light, falsetto, if you will, descending slides. And only for 5 to 10 minutes at a time. Then, after a few weeks, when rehabbing into songs, I would choose clean songs that were easy for me.

Here's a recording of my voice in recovery and using the song for recovery.

"I Don't Believe in Love" by Queensryche

http://www.box.com/s/f01abfff3963930ddb4d

So, if we rule out physical maladies like allergies and sinus drainage, and genetically inherited problems, such as loss of fine control at a certain age (which I doubt,) and if it is not acid reflux, or muscle strain in the throat from some non-singing activity, then you may have tried some "style" of singing that your voice was simply not meant to do. And I know others may give me heat about that. Oh well, I'm a grown man and I can take it.

Whatever you were doing that led to this, stop it. If it is, indeed, some "new thing" you were trying. Treasure the beautiful voice that you do have.

Last edited by ronws (2013-08-07 01:31:28)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#13 2013-08-07 10:00:00

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Maybe its me trying to discover my whistle register that did this. It didnt hurt though, didnt feel strained. I put that aside obviously. I am going to try light exercises now and see how it goes.

Your voice sounds good in that song Ronws. Not sure how it is now though, so dont have anything to compare it to :)

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#14 2013-08-08 02:02:27

ronws
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

gilad wrote:

Maybe its me trying to discover my whistle register that did this. It didnt hurt though, didnt feel strained. I put that aside obviously. I am going to try light exercises now and see how it goes.

Your voice sounds good in that song Ronws. Not sure how it is now though, so dont have anything to compare it to :)

I recorded this about a month ago, or so.

SL - 2 by Queensryche

https://www.box.com/s/wm9mdujcbk50vbkbrd0q

As opposed to the previous song, which I recorded in 2011,but I moved to Box in 2012.

Last edited by ronws (2013-08-08 02:05:53)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#15 2013-08-09 07:58:01

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Alright, after trying Mark's exercises with no luck, I think I need to see an ENT when I get back home from this long trip. It seems that singing is easier for me than doing any exercise. Feels lightly choked singing... I hope I find a way to cope with this issue and get back to normal soon. This is more than frustrating.

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#16 2013-08-09 23:18:56

Simon Magus
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Sorry to hear that, gilad. If vocalizing relaxed and at low volume (as I'm assuming Mark instructed you to do) is difficult to do, then yes, I think you should get it checked out.

I know how it feels to be out of commission for a while. Before I knew that I was suffering from a chronic muscle spasm (probably unrelated to singing), I was unable to sing, as the ENT speculated I might have torn one of the "strap muscles." In one way, it was good to know my cords were unscathed, but those strap muscles are important too! Anyway, a little vocal vacation isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I found returning to singing like riding a bike. Yeah, you might lose a little stamina, but it will return quickly.

Last edited by Simon Magus (2013-08-09 23:19:34)

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#17 2013-08-10 18:38:16

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Thanks for the reassuring words Simon! I will schedule an appointment with an ENT. In fact, my cousin is one. I hope he knows to diagnose vocal chords correctly when it comes to singers.

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#18 2013-08-11 15:35:53

ronws
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Well bless you, Gilad and may you have better and good health. La chayim.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#19 2013-08-11 17:46:28

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Thanks Ronws!

I don't want to speak to early, but while I was sitting in a jaccuzzi today, I started vocalizing an Mm, and managed to do it all as if nothing happend. I then tried with an Eee which was a huge issue in the recent weeks, and then again, no problem. I thought maybe i am vocalizing too low in my range, but then realised it was not, it was my usual low to high. Sooo... hopefully this is the start of the end of my issue. Knock on wood. Going to try Baxster's excercises again. Ill keep you updated. Thank you all for your amazing support guys!! You all deserve a Reputation point ;) LOL.

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#20 2013-08-13 00:59:28

ronws
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Thanks, Gilad, but it's all you.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#21 2013-08-16 12:18:43

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Alright,

Monday I have an ENT appointment. Let's hope for the best.

:)

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#22 2013-08-17 00:41:07

ronws
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Good luck and many blessings to you and your family. It will only get better from here.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#23 2013-08-17 16:57:40

Simon Magus
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Yes, good luck, Gilad! The info you get out of this will only serve to help you in recovering, so keep your head up!

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#24 2013-08-18 10:24:54

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

thx!!

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#25 2013-08-19 08:31:17

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Hey Guys!

What a great way to start the morning.

Just came back from the ENT. She was amazing. Very professional and I am so glad I had the opportunity to meet with her. Here is what went on, and her diagnoses.

1) She had me put on this weird head thing with a mic on its end, and made me sing Ah, and Ehs, and Ih, and Ohh., and then a siren. That gave her a map of my range and ETC. (Ill upload a copy of the output once I am done.)

2) She did a scope check through the mouth. (She thinks its better then the nose one) and made me do the same.

She said that I have alot of mucus on the cords (shows cords not hydrated enough) She didnt see any bumps or anything. She did see that they seem a bit over used which is what I suspected.

Then comes the best part. I told her, for some reason, unlike almost every singer I know, I can't do vocal fry. Only early in the morning or when I am tired or sick. She then stood behind me and asked me if she can do a manual manipulation. I said sure. So she pushed gently on my voice box in a few specific areas for about 20 seconds. Then she said, ok. now try it, and all of a sudden, VOCAL FRY! She said that it means that my voice box needs to be more relaxed, and that could also be the cause of my airyness up high.

Here is a translation of her diagnosis:
While feeling the neck, there is a strain mostly in the CT space. After manipulating it slightly, he was able to do the VOCAL FRY with no problems. Stroboscope showed vocal cords vibration normal. No issues in sound waves, and no issues with vocal cord closure. (Hmm.) Extra mucus on cords.

Quality of voice normal during talking and when doing glassando there is a break in the high part of his range. Seems there is an issue with undeveloped resonance. (Now this one was a surprise)....

So, anyone any inputs?

How do I develop my resonance?
How do I relax my voice box? :)

:cool: Still... Very happy camper!

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#26 2013-08-19 17:32:59

Owen Korzec
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Imitating the vowel shades of other great singers may help you figure out the right resonance to help you get through a break.

Relaxing voice box...hm can't help you there

How can their be airiness but she's saying you have good cord closure? Maybe she means you need more twang which is partly resonance and partly an extra source of cord closure?

Last edited by Owen Korzec (2013-08-19 17:33:20)

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#27 2013-08-20 00:09:03

ronws
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Well, good news, you don't have physical damage.

Let me give you the hardest advice to follow. Drop the vocal fry stuff. At least until you learn how to relax.

Soprano Coloratura Ffrangcon-Davies - "When I sing, I feel as if I have no throat at all." (As quoted by Lilli Lehmann, a great soprano in her own time. But heck, what does she know? She was only the greatest singer of her time.)

You are straining because you are trying to manipulate everything in the throat.

So, here's my redneck mantra, which you may have read once, twice, 100 times.

Motion, when necessary, in the abs.
Note in the head.
Nothing in the throat, ever, amen.

I don't mean that you don't have tension. You have tension in the arm when you pick up a glass of water. But if you are doing something that is causing a strain that leaves you debilitated, will you, for the love of Jahweh, please stop it?

Whatever you do, it must be relaxed in the throat, always and forever. Anything else leads to ruination, in my amateur opinion.

You will, of course, do what you want to do, regardless of advice from a doctor, or even a fellow singer who damaged himself from breaking rule #1.

But bless you, anyway.

Last edited by ronws (2013-08-20 00:10:47)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#28 2013-08-20 10:49:49

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

First off, here is the Vocal Map as she called it.. If anyone can spread some light on it, it would be nice to hear.

http://imageshack.com/photo/my-images/17/jndk.jpg/

Now:

Owen: I seriously have no idea how there can be airyness when the cords are closed.... I saw it in my eyes.  They were closed. My assumption is using too much air...

Ronws: Advice accepted. I will now drop vocal fry until I do achieve enough relaxation. This really bothers me... But will let it go per your advice :cool:

Thanks guys!

Last edited by gilad (2013-08-20 10:50:17)

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#29 2013-08-21 00:11:24

ronws
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Well, that graph is way above my paygrade. But Joanna Cazden is our vocal health expert and I bet Steven Fraser could also shed some light on this.

And I think you are acting wisely, Gilad. It's not that you will never do vocal fry or should never do it. I just think, if something is wrong, it is better to stop it until all factors are accounted for, including relaxation. Above all, respect your doctor. Her knowledge of this makes me an amoeba in comparison. Now, if you ever need a pot changed out in your guitar, call me. I'm fairly handy with a soldering iron. Or you want to convert your flourescent lighting from T-12 magnetic ballast to T-8 electronic ballast, I can do that in my sleep.

I have heard your recordings before and I want you to conserve and keep that beautiful voice.

edited to add:
update
I just emailed Steven Fraser and messaged Joanna Cazden, alerting them of this thread to help make sense of that graph.

I want to help you get back to singing as beautifully as you do.

Last edited by ronws (2013-08-21 00:16:07)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#30 2013-08-23 20:10:41

Simon Magus
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Hey Gilad, so glad you got a diagnosis and that there's nothing seriously wrong!

A few things:

-That she said your cords are "overused" and mucusey perhaps implies a bit of swelling, which may be affecting closure - but nothing closure specific like a bowing of the cords...

-Seems you're holding alot of tension in your larynx. I believe I've been guilty of this as well and have been practicing some light laryngeal massage - rocking it back and forth very slowly and gently. Freaked me out at first, but between this and being mindful of my posture, I've been able to make strides to release my own muscular tensions in the area.

-Did your voice sound breathy when you vocalized under the scope? Did you have your tongue out? You could have been doing things differently than you do when you sing, which can affect closure, is what I'm saying.

-Resonance is a result of cord closure and an unobstructed resonator. When you sing, is your tongue pulled back? Is your larynx constantly high? You should probably focus on releasing the tension you're apparently holding in these areas, and then the resonance will come.

In any case, hopefully you are more at ease now, knowing nothing is seriously wrong, and that alone should help with some of the tension. And you also have learned that you need more water (probably the most basic thing that we all constantly forget! haha) Now, it is your job to start breaking down your old technique and build up a healthy one. I will try and rack my brain for any exercises that might help you along your way.

Last edited by Simon Magus (2013-08-23 20:13:40)

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#31 2013-08-23 20:30:19

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Ronws: THanks bro! NO asnwer as of yet ;)

Simon: Thanks for your concern buddy. The voice didnt sound breathy during the scope, and the tongue was out.  She was pulling it. My larynx is not usually high. It is actually pretty stable in my opinion.

Yes, the fact that she said nothing is wrong really helped my attitude, and motivation. Yesterday I did a session, and just for kicks wanted to see where my range stands. I was pretty amazed to learn that I can not "hit" a A5 where before I could only hit a G#5. So there is improvement.

I still have issues though with the airyness. It usually happens when doing Ahhh, Ahh, Ahh . Aslo Oooh, Oooh, Oooh.

Thanks again for everything buddy!

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#32 2013-08-23 20:43:55

Simon Magus
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

No prob, dude! "Ah" and "oh" (you mean like in the word coat?) are more difficult than the so-called "closed vowels" like "ee" in getting the cords to close. My favorite exercise for cord closure is a basic 1,2,3,4,5,2,3,1 on "ey,ah,ey,ah,ey,ah,ey,ah,ey." I make sure to move nothing but the tongue to form the two different vowels. Also, I am sure to not start on a "hey-ah" But, "ey!" like a New Yorker calling out or similarly like at the beginning of "Oiy-vey!" haha. You just want be sure to do it gently enough that it's not what they call a "glottal shock," which is a damaging habit. Maybe give that a try, but be gentle with it.

Edit: Forgot to mention...in that exercise, they "ey" is closer to an "ee" in that you have tongue forward (tip of it against the back of the bottom front teeth). So it kind of sounds betwen an "ey" and an "ee" when you do it. You can also start on an "ng" to feel that separation between the middle of the tongue and the palate. I love this one. Walk around doing it all day sometimes, much to the annoyance of my girlfriend. :P

Last edited by Simon Magus (2013-08-23 20:49:36)

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#33 2013-08-23 22:01:48

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Thanks Simon.

When I do the OOh and Ahh that I mentioned, it gets to a point that I really have to put alot of effort to get the closure. It feels damaging.... If I do it light, nothing happens.. That is the weird thing I am having and dont know how to fix it, without pushing....

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#34 2013-08-24 18:21:15

Simon Magus
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Yeah, the exercise I mentioned probably shouldn't be used then. In fact, I hesistate to really recommend any exercises, at the risk of being unethical, as any exercise not monitored by a professional can be taken too far. I forgot to mention that when I did that exercise, it was always in chest voice - within ~2 octaves that were very comfortable for me.

As to your all-or-nothing coordination, has it always been like that? Could be the swelling. Could be the excess tension. You're only gonna get so far on a forum, though. I'd seek out a voice teacher and/or voice therapist.

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#35 2013-08-27 02:34:48

JoannaC
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Simon Magus wrote:

You're only gonna get so far on a forum, though. I'd seek out a voice teacher and/or voice therapist.

Totally agree.

Larynx is a 3D mechanism, complex relationship to many muscle groups, breathing, etc. verbal descriptions on a forum are gonna be limited.

Some voice therapists such as myself work via Skype. I also can recommend a colleague in Tel Aviv -- excellent singing teacher and speech therapist -- so contact me off-list if either one would be helpful.

Joanna


TMV's voice/speech therapist

free vocal health info:
www.voiceofyourlife.com

The Lifestyle Guide for Singers: 
www.tinyurl.com/everyday-voice-download

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#36 2013-08-27 14:32:31

mathdel
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

I've had serious problems with my voice last year. I went like 11 time in 2 weeks to my doctor, first he thought it was a laryngitis, then a Pharangytis and finally acid ruflux. Everytime he asked me if I had acid rufluxes I told him no. I wasn't aware of it and that seemed to be the real cause of my almost complete vocal extinction. When he gave me the right meds, I healed after 3 days. Causes of vocal weaknesses is more often due to these Laryngitis, Pharyngitis or acid ruflux if it lasts for more the 5 - 7 days. Vocal overuse last for approximately 3 to 4 days, at least if you rest your vocal chords. When you feel that the cause of your pain is due to vocal overuse "mostly wrong vocal technique" then go see a ear nose throat doctor to look at your vocal chords. He will tell you if your vocal chords are injured and if you need to rest or to do siomething specific, in the extremely worst case it might result in surgery. This last case is quite rare unless you perform everyday on stage for  a week with bad monitoring and without the possibility to stop your gig instantly.  I would suggest you to start by drinking warm milk with honey, and to visit your doctor. But this is just my opinion. ;)

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#37 2013-08-27 18:55:46

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Mathdel: I did get asked if I have acid reflux, and I said no, because I don't think I do.. But maybe that is the my case as well. How would someone know if he has Acid Reflux. Wouldn't the ENT see that when Scoping me?

Thanks

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#38 2013-08-30 13:35:27

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Frustration setting in again...:mad:

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#39 2013-08-30 15:47:37

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Hey Gilad, been looking at this thread for a while, advices on vocal health were spot on. And its really a very good idea to take a break when things are not feeling fine.

Still I think it falls short on something... Consolidation of the middle voice takes 2 things Gilad, no matter how skilled/talented you are: good orientation, and patience/time.

Alone you can "expand range". You can sing with quality and do nice deliveries, lots of people do so without ever getting to a vocal lesson. But the technical work in the middle range is literally a mess that must be undone, its usually a complex state of many things getting in the way of each other, and the adjustments if done on large changes instead of a slow progressive compensation and correction, will just shift the mess around instead of giving you understandment and control to know how to ballance it.

The goal is exactly having consistency and a registration that you can absolutely trust on a live situation, regardless if its a day where you are not feeling so well, a bit of alergies, so on.

The devil is on the details, I dont think you have new tricks to learn, rather you have to really iron out the issues. Any unballance on the middle voice will cause more effort, and with more effort, if you are on a day that you are not feeling so good, maybe something silly like just a bit pissed at something, you will feel that something is wrong and it will have an impact on your voice.

Of course the point is not to become super-human, its exactly accepting your human condition, the fact that the activity you want to do is very, very, VERY demanding on your body and will require a lot of specialization. You have to be nearly perfect at it because in there, the error margin is too thin.

Last but not least, getting more range is not necessarily a sign of improvement on this particular matter. Although progress on the definition of the middle voice makes it much easier to understand and handle "extra" range needs, the opposite usually does not hold true.

Hope it makes sense, I know that it dont really help directly. But I really think thatm at the point you are, which is quite far, improvements start to require more and more attention and fine tuning, which when summed together, will give you the result you want. And by orientation, I mean a long term work together with a good teacher that can do what you want. This should avoid frustration, and Im sure you can nail it fairly quickly given your discipline and I suppose, diligence on your studies.

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#40 2013-08-30 17:41:54

Simon Magus
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

gilad wrote:

Mathdel: I did get asked if I have acid reflux, and I said no, because I don't think I do.. But maybe that is the my case as well. How would someone know if he has Acid Reflux. Wouldn't the ENT see that when Scoping me?

Thanks

Yes, reflux would generally show some redness on the vocal folds and surrounding region.

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#41 2013-08-31 00:48:00

ronws
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Registered: 2010-05-23
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

Hey Gilad, been looking at this thread for a while, advices on vocal health were spot on. And its really a very good idea to take a break when things are not feeling fine.

Still I think it falls short on something... Consolidation of the middle voice takes 2 things Gilad, no matter how skilled/talented you are: good orientation, and patience/time.

Alone you can "expand range". You can sing with quality and do nice deliveries, lots of people do so without ever getting to a vocal lesson. But the technical work in the middle range is literally a mess that must be undone, its usually a complex state of many things getting in the way of each other, and the adjustments if done on large changes instead of a slow progressive compensation and correction, will just shift the mess around instead of giving you understandment and control to know how to ballance it.

The goal is exactly having consistency and a registration that you can absolutely trust on a live situation, regardless if its a day where you are not feeling so well, a bit of alergies, so on.

The devil is on the details, I dont think you have new tricks to learn, rather you have to really iron out the issues. Any unballance on the middle voice will cause more effort, and with more effort, if you are on a day that you are not feeling so good, maybe something silly like just a bit pissed at something, you will feel that something is wrong and it will have an impact on your voice.

Of course the point is not to become super-human, its exactly accepting your human condition, the fact that the activity you want to do is very, very, VERY demanding on your body and will require a lot of specialization. You have to be nearly perfect at it because in there, the error margin is too thin.

Last but not least, getting more range is not necessarily a sign of improvement on this particular matter. Although progress on the definition of the middle voice makes it much easier to understand and handle "extra" range needs, the opposite usually does not hold true.

Hope it makes sense, I know that it dont really help directly. But I really think thatm at the point you are, which is quite far, improvements start to require more and more attention and fine tuning, which when summed together, will give you the result you want. And by orientation, I mean a long term work together with a good teacher that can do what you want. This should avoid frustration, and Im sure you can nail it fairly quickly given your discipline and I suppose, diligence on your studies.

Excellent post.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#42 2013-08-31 06:09:53

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Thanks for the support Felipe. The problem persists even after I take breaks. I only get my voice in a worst condition if I take breaks, and it becomes very hard to control. Not natural..  You are deffinitely right.  The range extension is not a sign of good vocal training.

Simon: Well, most of the Acid reflux symptoms I don't have. For example I don't have heartburn too frequently.  In fact, I cant remember when was the last time I had one. On the other hand, and taking last night for example, i at dinner at 8pm, it was some mussels, and then some sea food. Didn't feel stuffed at the end of the meal. Went to be around Midnight, (elevated head, and I mean I really elevated) Woke up this morning as if my stomach didn't digest the food. like its stuck between my throat and stomach. I can't read anywhere about such a symptom, but for some reason it happens to be quite frequent, and i thought it had to do with eating late. Today I will just eat breakfast/lunch and maybe a small salad for dinner and see if this continues.  I will go to my family Dr. so I can get GERD/Acid Reflux ruled out. If it is GERD/Acid reflux, this might have done permanent damage to my chords from below. I hope not.

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#43 2013-08-31 08:49:46

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

gilad Indeed rule out the possibility of reflux, although something you would surely have if the larynx is getting irritated is a lot of phlegm, specially in the morning.

It could be just disturbing your sleep, and sleep, along with water, are the two things that singers need to ensure to be right.

But please, "damage from bellow" is not possible, bellow the folds are your lungs, not the digestive system. And even so, its not like we gargle on acid the whole night, the fluids do not have to get in direct contact with the folds to cause an issue. If that was the case, believe me, you would know it happened.

So yeah,go to the doc and see if its really an issue, do change your meal for a few days. But please just forget about these fears of invisible damage, you been to the ENT and it was fine,  Remember her diagnosis was of functional nature, technique.

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#44 2013-08-31 11:11:04

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

gilad Indeed rule out the possibility of reflux, although something you would surely have if the larynx is getting irritated is a lot of phlegm, specially in the morning.

It could be just disturbing your sleep, and sleep, along with water, are the two things that singers need to ensure to be right.

But please, "damage from bellow" is not possible, bellow the folds are your lungs, not the digestive system. And even so, its not like we gargle on acid the whole night, the fluids do not have to get in direct contact with the folds to cause an issue. If that was the case, believe me, you would know it happened.

So yeah,go to the doc and see if its really an issue, do change your meal for a few days. But please just forget about these fears of invisible damage, you been to the ENT and it was fine,  Remember her diagnosis was of functional nature, technique.

Thanks Felipe,
Wow... How the hell did i even think of damage from below where the lungs are below the folds.. LOL.

Ok, well that rules out the damage from below.  I do get a lot of phlegm after vocalizing. (Not talking about heavy vocalizing) I do not get it in the morning though. She did say that i do have a lot of phlegm. I started drinking 3Liters of water a day at a minimum. During vocal practice i devour a 1.5 bottle easily.

Soo. if it looks good from the top, and shouldn't have issues from the bottom as its only air coming from there... What else could be my problem? The fact that I can't vocal fry like 99% of all humans, the fact that i lost the tone in my mid/highs and have to use much effort to get it. The fact that I can't do hollow, hooty, heady without a lot of strain. Seems like a huge mystery.

Last edited by gilad (2013-08-31 11:13:24)

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#45 2013-08-31 11:33:41

ronws
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Well, Gilad, according to the anatomy I have read, and I am not a singing expert or singing teacher, so my opinion means absolutely nothing, no, of course the stomach contents themselves do not affect the folds. But the vapors from the stomach, which are possible, especially when you belch they can enter the pharynx and be present as suspended particles in air.

For example, drinking alcohol does not directly involve the folds. But any vapors that could arise from the esophagus or from the stomach could have an effect. Acid Reflux is not the stomach acid coming up to and touching the folds, but the vapors from that could have an effect. And there are some who have the problem treated and it solved a problem for them.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#46 2013-09-18 11:55:07

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Ok..

GOt the VOcal Cords video. Is there any Dr. or someone with the knowledge who can look at it?

Uncomfortable to post it so everyone can see it.. :)

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#47 2013-09-23 15:02:08

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

gilad,

Saw this paper today and reminded of you:

http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/675 … thesis.pdf

May give some insight. Its a good read anyways.

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#48 2013-09-23 15:36:58

gilad
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Re: Starting to get a bit worried...

Hey Felipe! Thank you very much! I will most definitely give it a read!

Appreciate it brother!

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