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#1 2014-12-10 18:28:00

Jarom
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Registered: 2014-08-16
Posts: 31
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bridging late vs strain or shouting

Through my experience in atemting and atempting to teach bridging late I have noticed that it is very easy to confuse it with shouting and straining. Is this a common problem with yourself or with your students? the greatest tip that works for me is making sure you have good vowel mods.

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2014-12-10 18:28:00

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#2 2014-12-10 19:14:17

D.Starr
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From: UK
Registered: 2011-01-10
Posts: 755
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

Bridging late is definitely something that should be taught later on. As you've said it can be perceived as shouting. With the correct support and vowel modification it can be a useful thing to use, obviously as preference.

I have been practicing bridging late and it's giving me the tone I seek, I do need more practice in this area though.

If I'd have tried to do this months ago I would have just blasted out my throat and messed myself up, but now I feel a pulling down sensation and a sensation of holding back.

At the moment I'm trying to take chest all the way up to A4-C5 area and it's slowly but surely coming along. Slowly dialling back on the volume but keeping everything else the same.

Many people will not agree with bridging late and opt for a more heady shift earlier on, again all down to preference and bias towards a programme.

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#3 2014-12-10 20:25:34

Owen Korzec
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Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

Agreed with all, it's a tough coordination to get the hang of because it feels like holding on to one thing and relaxing others, or gently holding on instead of gripping - whatever thought gets you into the right place.

You also have to make sure you're not blowing air too aggressively or a smooth bridge will be impossible

A bunch of other problems could happen honestly.

Vowel mods are definitely a big key point in the solution but it's important to not forget everything else involved. A lot of other foundational elements need to be in place that not seem important until you train in this heavier but finessed way

Last edited by Owen Korzec (2014-12-10 20:27:52)

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#4 2014-12-10 23:23:32

VIDEOHERE
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Registered: 2008-12-22
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

i guess you could say i'm a fan of bridging late (and i use this set of words only because it's familiar jargon) or not at all.

you need to be able to release weight when you go up top but for me the action of it comes from mental intent.

i have learned that "mentally" maintaining space and height as you ascend higher will help you accomplish that without having to back off the intensity. this mental intent is what gets the voice to make these adjustments rather than a blatant maneuvering action. you have to learn to "think in" a throat shape (vowel) that works for your own particular voice that will allow a release rather than a strain or a lockup.

it took me a while to figure this out. once this gets really honed in and well coordinated you stop sensing any bridges.  at least that's what has happened to me.

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#5 2014-12-11 00:03:43

Danielformica
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From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

Bob but do you have a ceiling on your voice?if so you should work on smoothing out your bridges or those things you don't acknowledge

Last edited by Danielformica (2014-12-11 00:04:56)


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#6 2014-12-11 05:53:20

Owen Korzec
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Posts: 3109
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

Dan's comment reminds me:

The big difference between so-called derogatory term "chest pulling" and so-called preferred "late bridging" is simply that chest pulling gives you a range ceiling - as you get higher you constrict more and more and then your voice will just hit a threshold where it can't make a clean sound anymore. Whereas late bridging you keep things in control and the constriction doesn't multiply as you ascend. Your range keeps going because you're taking a full voice sound and releasing just enough to be able to bridge it smoothly - you make as little shifting as necessary to get higher and continue with the same sound without constriction.

The as little shifting as necessary part is tricky because the balance is so specific that if you were me as a beginner you'd either back off so much that you just bridge early and quiet or you try to back off your shouting slightly but alas you still hit a range ceiling and get no benefit from backing off. Neither of these are correct, the student should be ready to look for something different.

That was another big key moment for me. It took me a while to feel in my own voice, but it was helpful that my teacher mentioned that, as he described it - there will eventually be no difference between chest pulling and mixing - it will all be a mixed voice (no range ceiling) and you just roll in more or less weight/intensity into the same sensation.

For me, it's not all that different from speaking with authority or calling out to someone in a friendly way - listen to most singers and their high full voice shows huge resemblance to that reference. But it's WAY different than the kind of angry yelling you may hear a select few singers try to sing high with.

Last edited by Owen Korzec (2014-12-11 05:57:07)

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#7 2014-12-11 06:46:22

Danielformica
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From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

If you stick close to some good vowel modifications or good training vowels like ou as in book and make it sound a little deep same with ih you can work the passages quite quickly.


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#8 2014-12-11 08:27:35

Martin H
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Registered: 2008-11-25
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

@Jarom

First of all, you'll have to define what you mean about "bridging late"?

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#9 2014-12-11 11:32:30

D.Starr
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From: UK
Registered: 2011-01-10
Posts: 755
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

Not bridging into a heady resonance until G4 upwards maybe even A4, in my opinion. Just so its chestier as it go up.

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#10 2014-12-11 13:45:34

Martin H
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

@D.Starr

What is a "heady resonance"?

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#11 2014-12-11 15:17:59

D.Starr
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From: UK
Registered: 2011-01-10
Posts: 755
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

In my opinion a lighter phonation that lends itself to a headier sound.

Basically trying to bring chest up as high as possible before having to "mix" "let it go" into head.

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#12 2014-12-11 15:29:58

MDEW
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 2866
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

Martin H wrote:

@D.Starr

What is a "heady resonance"?

Dan Fogelberg as opposed to Bob Seger.........Smokey Robinson as opposed to Jackie Wilson. :cool:


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

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#13 2014-12-11 16:39:30

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7197
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

Owen Korzec wrote:

Dan's comment reminds me:

The big difference between so-called derogatory term "chest pulling" and so-called preferred "late bridging" is simply that chest pulling gives you a range ceiling - as you get higher you constrict more and more and then your voice will just hit a threshold where it can't make a clean sound anymore. Whereas late bridging you keep things in control and the constriction doesn't multiply as you ascend. Your range keeps going because you're taking a full voice sound and releasing just enough to be able to bridge it smoothly - you make as little shifting as necessary to get higher and continue with the same sound without constriction.

The as little shifting as necessary part is tricky because the balance is so specific that if you were me as a beginner you'd either back off so much that you just bridge early and quiet or you try to back off your shouting slightly but alas you still hit a range ceiling and get no benefit from backing off. Neither of these are correct, the student should be ready to look for something different.

That was another big key moment for me. It took me a while to feel in my own voice, but it was helpful that my teacher mentioned that, as he described it - there will eventually be no difference between chest pulling and mixing - it will all be a mixed voice (no range ceiling) and you just roll in more or less weight/intensity into the same sensation.

For me, it's not all that different from speaking with authority or calling out to someone in a friendly way - listen to most singers and their high full voice shows huge resemblance to that reference. But it's WAY different than the kind of angry yelling you may hear a select few singers try to sing high with.

owen,

there will eventually be no difference between chest pulling and mixing - it will all be a mixed voice (no range ceiling) and you just roll in more or less weight/intensity into the same sensation.


yes (to statement above), a heady mix or a chesty mix (all your call) and nothing has to be "backed off."

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#14 2014-12-11 17:28:11

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

VIDEOHERE wrote:

Owen Korzec wrote:

Dan's comment reminds me:

The big difference between so-called derogatory term "chest pulling" and so-called preferred "late bridging" is simply that chest pulling gives you a range ceiling - as you get higher you constrict more and more and then your voice will just hit a threshold where it can't make a clean sound anymore. Whereas late bridging you keep things in control and the constriction doesn't multiply as you ascend. Your range keeps going because you're taking a full voice sound and releasing just enough to be able to bridge it smoothly - you make as little shifting as necessary to get higher and continue with the same sound without constriction.

The as little shifting as necessary part is tricky because the balance is so specific that if you were me as a beginner you'd either back off so much that you just bridge early and quiet or you try to back off your shouting slightly but alas you still hit a range ceiling and get no benefit from backing off. Neither of these are correct, the student should be ready to look for something different.

That was another big key moment for me. It took me a while to feel in my own voice, but it was helpful that my teacher mentioned that, as he described it - there will eventually be no difference between chest pulling and mixing - it will all be a mixed voice (no range ceiling) and you just roll in more or less weight/intensity into the same sensation.

For me, it's not all that different from speaking with authority or calling out to someone in a friendly way - listen to most singers and their high full voice shows huge resemblance to that reference. But it's WAY different than the kind of angry yelling you may hear a select few singers try to sing high with.

owen,

there will eventually be no difference between chest pulling and mixing - it will all be a mixed voice (no range ceiling) and you just roll in more or less weight/intensity into the same sensation.


yes (to statement above), a heady mix or a chesty mix (all your call) and nothing has to be "backed off."

Well if he or she starts with a pressed phonation and tries to sing up a scale without backing off the press he or she will end up with a ceiling. So backing off a pressed phonation would be a smart thing to do


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#15 2014-12-11 19:01:02

Jens
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 1461
Reputation :   36 

Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

Here are my views on the matter.

http://youtu.be/izkVqt3ND5A

All in all in general get a good program like the four pillars who builds your voice from the lighterside then adds vocal mass. When that is in place you can move on to the chestyer (m1)exercises that rob has in the program, however i feel like alot of people are jumping on the chestytrain way to early, before they have the m1-m2 "bridge" strong.
In the end if it's not your flair/talent going in to the bigvocalmass sounds,I think youll loose out on alot of range and utility if you do it to early.

Also listen to Daniel, he sings twice as good as the second best member(whoever that now is)  on this forum and then Im probably being humble.

Cheers guys ;)

Last edited by Jens (2014-12-11 21:47:36)

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#16 2014-12-12 00:00:22

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7197
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

jens,

the only issue i have is there is no way to standardize and qualify what's light and what's heavy.

one singer's light vs. another singer's light, one singer's heavy vs. another singer's heavy.

to me both elements need to be trained together.

think about it this way....if someone has a naturally big voice, endowed with a naturally big voice. does initiating light mass training going to stimulate the voice to grow as much as or less than someone with a lighter voice?

do we really know that going at it light works in all voices?

like 2 guys working out in a gym....one guy's light workout may be with 15 lbs. while another guy needs 25 lbs. now if we give the guy that needs to use 25 lbs., 15 lbs., is it really going to benefit him?

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#17 2014-12-12 00:39:22

Jens
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 1461
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

VIDEOHERE wrote:

jens,

the only issue i have is there is no way to standardize and qualify what's light and what's heavy.

one singer's light vs. another singer's light, one singer's heavy vs. another singer's heavy.

to me both elements need to be trained together.

think about it this way....if someone has a naturally big voice, endowed with a naturally big voice. does initiating light mass training going to stimulate the voice to grow as much as or less than someone with a lighter voice?

do we really know that going at it light works in all voices?

like 2 guys working out in a gym....one guy's light workout may be with 15 lbs. while another guy needs 25 lbs. now if we give the guy that needs to use 25 lbs., 15 lbs., is it really going to benefit him?

Reread my comment,listen to the clip... And then read yours... The Only reason I can find your coming to this conclusion is that you didn't read/listen properly.

Listen to the clip 5:15 show me one singer who's light mechanism sounds like that...

If there are no way to standardise light and heavy this discussion would not be...

Some guys do have a flair/talent for heavyer sounds yes, then go down that route. Most guys however crack af C4-F4, building a belt on that well you will Lose out on your topend.

also your gym analogy is flawed, a better one would be.

One Guy goes to the gym, he can Only lift weights above 100 lbs, whenever he lifts lower weights he's gonna smash himself in his face.
You think it's better for him to use the weights above 100 lbs or learning to control the lowerweights?

Last edited by Jens (2014-12-12 00:40:15)

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#18 2014-12-12 00:58:02

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

do we know anyone with a naturally big voice? Delmonaco had a huge voice so did corelli but if you listen to them speak they sound like girls.


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#19 2014-12-12 01:08:56

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
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Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

Hey Jens, excellent video. I agree with most of what you said. Very well explained, much better than any amount of text here.

My experience was quite individual and I'd love to do my own little video if I ever get time.

Also Dan:
"Well if he or she starts with a pressed phonation and tries to sing up a scale without backing off the press he or she will end up with a ceiling. So backing off a pressed phonation would be a smart thing to do"

EXACTLY. This is similar to what I had to do. For me it wasn't exactly pressing more like forcing maybe? Hard to explain in text but I still know the sensation of my tensions that put the ceiling on my range and what it feels like to release them. Sometimes when I perform I still tense the old way sometimes I don't, I've been working on getting away from that tension and pure yelling coordination I've drilled in so much. But it's only that that I had to back off from. It's different than backing off into a head voice but it's still backing off from something.

Last edited by Owen Korzec (2014-12-12 01:10:39)

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#20 2014-12-12 10:32:35

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
Reputation :   

Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

I have this weird analogy on passing the bridge. Through the chest register up towards the passagio I'm forcing the air down, or I'm "bearing down" while I sing. Then when it gets too tight I flip it around and start "singing up/outwards," it feels like I'm blowing the sound through a straw, and there's a huge sense of release in the mechanism.

Most methods stress the release must be felt, and I finally get what it physically feels like. It literally does feel like the quicksand you're wading through turns suddenly to fountain water.

On topic: The further I push this release more pressed the phonation sounds. It does sound better with some songs (Symphony X - End of Innocence), but it sounds horrible in some karaoke classics (Morrison's Moondance, i.e.)

So might it be that the "strain" is in the ears of the listener?

Last edited by Khassera (2014-12-12 10:34:29)


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#21 2014-12-12 15:53:09

MDEW
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 2866
Reputation :   32 

Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

Khassera wrote:

I have this weird analogy on passing the bridge. Through the chest register up towards the passagio I'm forcing the air down, or I'm "bearing down" while I sing. Then when it gets too tight I flip it around and start "singing up/outwards," it feels like I'm blowing the sound through a straw, and there's a huge sense of release in the mechanism.

Most methods stress the release must be felt, and I finally get what it physically feels like. It literally does feel like the quicksand you're wading through turns suddenly to fountain water.

On topic: The further I push this release more pressed the phonation sounds. It does sound better with some songs (Symphony X - End of Innocence), but it sounds horrible in some karaoke classics (Morrison's Moondance, i.e.)

So might it be that the "strain" is in the ears of the listener?

Thanks Khassera, I always felt that there were different 'Ways" to phonate and the only way I could explain that is by a feeling of "suppressing air or Blowing through" or "bearing down and pulling up". Wondering which was correct and not even knowing how to ask the question or if it even made a difference.   Confusing, isn't it. :/


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

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#22 2014-12-12 20:16:16

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7197
Reputation :   66 

Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

Jens wrote:

VIDEOHERE wrote:

jens,

the only issue i have is there is no way to standardize and qualify what's light and what's heavy.

one singer's light vs. another singer's light, one singer's heavy vs. another singer's heavy.

to me both elements need to be trained together.

think about it this way....if someone has a naturally big voice, endowed with a naturally big voice. does initiating light mass training going to stimulate the voice to grow as much as or less than someone with a lighter voice?

do we really know that going at it light works in all voices?

like 2 guys working out in a gym....one guy's light workout may be with 15 lbs. while another guy needs 25 lbs. now if we give the guy that needs to use 25 lbs., 15 lbs., is it really going to benefit him?

Reread my comment,listen to the clip... And then read yours... The Only reason I can find your coming to this conclusion is that you didn't read/listen properly.

Listen to the clip 5:15 show me one singer who's light mechanism sounds like that...

If there are no way to standardise light and heavy this discussion would not be...

Some guys do have a flair/talent for heavyer sounds yes, then go down that route. Most guys however crack af C4-F4, building a belt on that well you will Lose out on your topend.

also your gym analogy is flawed, a better one would be.

One Guy goes to the gym, he can Only lift weights above 100 lbs, whenever he lifts lower weights he's gonna smash himself in his face.
You think it's better for him to use the weights above 100 lbs or learning to control the lowerweights?

well, tell you what....just allow me to disagree.  i don't care if i'm the only one to disagree. i really don't.

yes, the voice has to thin as you head up top.  i agree with that. but what i don't agree with is you need to begin light and right, then apply more as you get better at this light and right.

to me you can achieve success with practicing (here's where it's hard to explain in words) fully engaged once you have warmed up.

if someone's voice can run up a scale powerfully, loudly, resonantly, whatever word you want to use to describe it, then they should. i don't believe, in all cases, you have to find this edge of the folds spot first, where you are just barely connecting, in all cases.

in some cases, depending on the singer, yes, but not in all. i believe you can also get equally good results by taking the voice as high up as possible in m1 providing you are mentally thinking in release with the vowels.

you don't back off anything, you don't push up anything, you don't bridge to anything. you simply build the strength, coordination, (muscle memory) and find release.....and it's difficult and time consuming.

one voice.

i'm a different kind of singer than someone like you.  you want those stratospheric notes and screams, which is fine. i respect that.

while i'm doing things where tone and tone colors plays more of a part in it than note height. if i can perform solid and chesty up to a d5, i'm happy. sure i'm always shooting for more, but the way i feel if i'm gonna sound borderline falsetto i'd rather not sing those notes. (not referring to you.)

so my training strategy plays out more like this. i'm going to hold on to m1 for as long as possible and achieve release from the vowel.

in my mind, i'm not bridging late, because i'm mentally bridging!

m1.................................................

rather than..

m1...................into m2

i know others think i'm wrong, and maybe by definition i sing with a press sound, but i don't see it that way.

thanks for accepting an unpopular viewpoint.

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#23 2014-12-12 20:37:09

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

"in my mind, i'm not bridging late, because not mentally bridging! "

its not mental its physical Bob.

Last edited by Danielformica (2014-12-12 20:38:12)


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#24 2014-12-13 01:50:15

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

I could not resist. And, it's Robin Trower.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#25 2014-12-13 04:38:26

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

Great discussion team... IN fact, I think one of the first things we will do at th new platform is blow open a big discussion on "bottom-up" / M1 pulling techniques... I think its important and am a big fan of it. However... lets do it over at the new forum.

Click HERE: http://tinyurl.com/TMVForumNewHome

We are shutting down this forum in the next 48 hours guys,... its time to migrate... you'll see the same posts over there... but we will lose about four days... like I said, Im locking this "old boy" down in about two days... pack your bags and go to the new system... your logins will work... its time to move into a nicer home...

:cool:

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#26 2014-12-13 04:46:39

Jens
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 1461
Reputation :   36 

Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

VIDEOHERE wrote:

Jens wrote:

VIDEOHERE wrote:

jens,

the only issue i have is there is no way to standardize and qualify what's light and what's heavy.

one singer's light vs. another singer's light, one singer's heavy vs. another singer's heavy.

to me both elements need to be trained together.

think about it this way....if someone has a naturally big voice, endowed with a naturally big voice. does initiating light mass training going to stimulate the voice to grow as much as or less than someone with a lighter voice?

do we really know that going at it light works in all voices?

like 2 guys working out in a gym....one guy's light workout may be with 15 lbs. while another guy needs 25 lbs. now if we give the guy that needs to use 25 lbs., 15 lbs., is it really going to benefit him?

Reread my comment,listen to the clip... And then read yours... The Only reason I can find your coming to this conclusion is that you didn't read/listen properly.

Listen to the clip 5:15 show me one singer who's light mechanism sounds like that...

If there are no way to standardise light and heavy this discussion would not be...

Some guys do have a flair/talent for heavyer sounds yes, then go down that route. Most guys however crack af C4-F4, building a belt on that well you will Lose out on your topend.

also your gym analogy is flawed, a better one would be.

One Guy goes to the gym, he can Only lift weights above 100 lbs, whenever he lifts lower weights he's gonna smash himself in his face.
You think it's better for him to use the weights above 100 lbs or learning to control the lowerweights?

well, tell you what....just allow me to disagree.  i don't care if i'm the only one to disagree. i really don't.

yes, the voice has to thin as you head up top.  i agree with that. but what i don't agree with is you need to begin light and right, then apply more as you get better at this light and right.

to me you can achieve success with practicing (here's where it's hard to explain in words) fully engaged once you have warmed up.

if someone's voice can run up a scale powerfully, loudly, resonantly, whatever word you want to use to describe it, then they should. i don't believe, in all cases, you have to find this edge of the folds spot first, where you are just barely connecting, in all cases.

in some cases, depending on the singer, yes, but not in all. i believe you can also get equally good results by taking the voice as high up as possible in m1 providing you are mentally thinking in release with the vowels.

you don't back off anything, you don't push up anything, you don't bridge to anything. you simply build the strength, coordination, (muscle memory) and find release.....and it's difficult and time consuming.

one voice.

i'm a different kind of singer than someone like you.  you want those stratospheric notes and screams, which is fine. i respect that.

while i'm doing things where tone and tone colors plays more of a part in it than note height. if i can perform solid and chesty up to a d5, i'm happy. sure i'm always shooting for more, but the way i feel if i'm gonna sound borderline falsetto i'd rather not sing those notes. (not referring to you.)

so my training strategy plays out more like this. i'm going to hold on to m1 for as long as possible and achieve release from the vowel.

in my mind, i'm not bridging late, because i'm mentally bridging!

m1.................................................

rather than..

m1...................into m2

i know others think i'm wrong, and maybe by definition i sing with a press sound, but i don't see it that way.

thanks for accepting an unpopular viewpoint.

To clear this up up I dont think you are wrong, Im saying I dont think it's the most efficient way specially if it's not your talent. Look at Lou gram his m2 is trained as (*auto edit*), wich make him being able to belt to F5-G5 and still has a bitchstrong m2 he can use that up on those pitches  aswell.

If your m2 was as strong as your m1 youd be tackling all the highs in "heartache,waiting for a girl, jukebox hero, i wanna know what love is ect"
If you tell me you dont want that id say your lying ;)

Ive been training this chestyer style for 3 years now, and i also now can belt D5/E5, I think our voices are much more similar than you think.

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#27 2014-12-13 05:46:11

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

Here is an E5 for ya... been eating my "bottom-up" wheaties... (ending).

Blending Bottom-Up M1 framework, with lighter palette colors... its a demo... will polish the production later.

"Nocturne" - Robert Lunte
https://soundcloud.com/robertlunte/nocturne

Go get setup at the new forum, we have a new "Porche" to drive now...

http://tinyurl.com/TMVForumNewHome

:P

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#28 2014-12-15 16:52:12

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7197
Reputation :   66 

Re: bridging late vs strain or shouting

Jens wrote:

VIDEOHERE wrote:

Jens wrote:


Reread my comment,listen to the clip... And then read yours... The Only reason I can find your coming to this conclusion is that you didn't read/listen properly.

Listen to the clip 5:15 show me one singer who's light mechanism sounds like that...

If there are no way to standardise light and heavy this discussion would not be...

Some guys do have a flair/talent for heavyer sounds yes, then go down that route. Most guys however crack af C4-F4, building a belt on that well you will Lose out on your topend.

also your gym analogy is flawed, a better one would be.

One Guy goes to the gym, he can Only lift weights above 100 lbs, whenever he lifts lower weights he's gonna smash himself in his face.
You think it's better for him to use the weights above 100 lbs or learning to control the lowerweights?

well, tell you what....just allow me to disagree.  i don't care if i'm the only one to disagree. i really don't.

yes, the voice has to thin as you head up top.  i agree with that. but what i don't agree with is you need to begin light and right, then apply more as you get better at this light and right.

to me you can achieve success with practicing (here's where it's hard to explain in words) fully engaged once you have warmed up.

if someone's voice can run up a scale powerfully, loudly, resonantly, whatever word you want to use to describe it, then they should. i don't believe, in all cases, you have to find this edge of the folds spot first, where you are just barely connecting, in all cases.

in some cases, depending on the singer, yes, but not in all. i believe you can also get equally good results by taking the voice as high up as possible in m1 providing you are mentally thinking in release with the vowels.

you don't back off anything, you don't push up anything, you don't bridge to anything. you simply build the strength, coordination, (muscle memory) and find release.....and it's difficult and time consuming.

one voice.

i'm a different kind of singer than someone like you.  you want those stratospheric notes and screams, which is fine. i respect that.

while i'm doing things where tone and tone colors plays more of a part in it than note height. if i can perform solid and chesty up to a d5, i'm happy. sure i'm always shooting for more, but the way i feel if i'm gonna sound borderline falsetto i'd rather not sing those notes. (not referring to you.)

so my training strategy plays out more like this. i'm going to hold on to m1 for as long as possible and achieve release from the vowel.

in my mind, i'm not bridging late, because i'm mentally bridging!

m1.................................................

rather than..

m1...................into m2

i know others think i'm wrong, and maybe by definition i sing with a press sound, but i don't see it that way.

thanks for accepting an unpopular viewpoint.

To clear this up up I dont think you are wrong, Im saying I dont think it's the most efficient way specially if it's not your talent. Look at Lou gram his m2 is trained as (*auto edit*), wich make him being able to belt to F5-G5 and still has a bitchstrong m2 he can use that up on those pitches  aswell.

If your m2 was as strong as your m1 youd be tackling all the highs in "heartache,waiting for a girl, jukebox hero, i wanna know what love is ect"
If you tell me you dont want that id say your lying ;)

Ive been training this chestyer style for 3 years now, and i also now can belt D5/E5, I think our voices are much more similar than you think.

jens, i guess we agree then lol!!!

like you, i train hard and i sing hard.  i set out to sing the foreigner tunes, and i succeeded, but they remain challenging on an ongoing basis.

even lou admitted in an interview the fact that every song is a test of his vocal ability.

i accept that they remain challenging. i'm not buying into what some teachers will say (none on this forum) that it is one day going to be effortless.

and i think this is what a lot of beginners don't get told to them. singing can be very physically demanding, perhaps more so than they realize or are willing to realize.

i believe it all comes down to what you are singing and how you wish to sound. to me, if you want to be really powerful up top, you need to mentally send to the brain the correct vowel adjustment. if the voice gets into the correct vowel adjustment (and that's a lot of trial and error) it's cleared to go up. there is no ceiling. but again, it's a lot of hard work and practice.

there's a lot to be said of the "light and right" approach, but for me personally, i prefer to just head up top with the right vowel and mentally disregard any bridge or going into an m2 mentality. i'm focused on a resonance shift mentality. i train the hell out of the falsetto too, stretching it way down so it overlaps the modal voice.

so far, i've had good results.  but who knows, maybe next year i'll be retracting what i say....lol!!

b.t.w. dan helped with some issues too. 
.

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