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#1 2014-11-23 02:44:06

m.i.r.
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Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
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question

So I am new here, been a guest here for many years lol. Finally pushed the register button lol, yall seem like a pretty cool group of people. And robert though a bit eccentric, seems like a good guy and someone whom truly cares. Plus what fun is normal anyways ha ha.

Anyways to the point, so any opinions on getting a modern tone higher up in the register? I am a dead to the money spinto break wise d4 and G4. Though can kick in fairly attractive baritone weight if wanted in the chest and low head voice depending on what i am singing. However, once i pass a g4 sharp I have two options. One cover classical style, has good powerfull tone yet it loses all modern sound and color goes straight to classical "sound". Second option, can let the larynx raise just a bit "no chocking or super high placement". The tone stays modern, yet my only beef is i dont like the control of vibrato once i get to that point. On that note, what is yalls opinion of vibrato, I have the so called "perfect" vibrato before in the classical world. However i am still not sold at all that it is automatic or a bi product of free singing. I know it is automatic in a way if i choose to activate it, however, I like sound of a solid straight tone as much as vibrato in certain areas. And they both seem just as healthy if all the proper ingredients are there. Also would like to make the c5 and higher a slight more "chesty" without having to rely on the classical sounding cover. I have accomplished a decent amount in the area instrument wise, now ready to take the next step vocally. I am satisfied where i am now, but now want to upgrade to blown away ha ha. Though i am my own worst critic so i know that will never happen, but nothing wrong with giving it the college try:)

Oh, forgot to say have trained in the "belcanto school" for four years, 30 years old.  Range is from g2 to b5, can go slightly lower and higher however not very musical. I have also been wanting to look at lessons from a modern teacher yet can find no one i like in the dallas area, so if there are any suggestions that would be awesome! I have thought about giving robert a try, however still on the fence about skype lessons.

I love to talk and have freindly debates as you can see from my many and loaded questions lol. I look forward to the replies:)

Oh ps, sorry for subject jumping, i am a bit a.d.d., especially when writing:)

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2014-11-23 02:44:06

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#2 2014-11-23 03:09:34

Jens
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Re: question

Post a clip of your approaches so we can hear :) very hard to give good tips on guesswork

Cheers :)

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#3 2014-11-23 03:34:52

m.i.r.
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Posts: 92
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Re: question

I def will, though with my computer it keeps redirecting me to a different looking site and says my user name does not excist. This is through my phone, as soon as i resolve that issue i will def load some samples, i am excited to hear the different comments and suggestions. Irritated I can not load any thing now.

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#4 2014-11-23 04:06:35

Jens
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Re: question

Use google and google the modern vocalist forum, you get a direktlink here, we are close to a big update so it think thats Why it's abit funky

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#5 2014-11-23 13:53:55

ronws
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Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
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Re: question

m.i.r. wrote:

Oh, forgot to say have trained in the "belcanto school" for four years, 30 years old.  Range is from g2 to b5, can go slightly lower and higher however not very musical. I have also been wanting to look at lessons from a modern teacher yet can find no one i like in the dallas area, so if there are any suggestions that would be awesome! I have thought about giving robert a try, however still on the fence about skype lessons.

Yeah? I work in Dallas but live quite a bit north of there. On the other stuff, I cannot help you and anything I could say would probably sound like stuff you learned in the bel canto school you mentioned.

Anyway, good luck.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#6 2014-11-23 18:59:07

Adolph Namlik
Executive Director, The Modern Vocalist World
From: "No Name", New York
Registered: 2008-11-15
Posts: 748
Reputation :   17 

Re: question

Jens wrote:

Use google and google the modern vocalist forum, you get a direktlink here, we are close to a big update so it think thats Why it's abit funky

m.i.r.,

Welcome to The Modern Vocalist World Forum !!!

Jen's is correct. The forum will be moving to a "new home" (so to speak), in the very near future, so that's why you are having the log in difficulties.

Warmest Regards,
Adolph


Adolph C. Namlik
Executive Director ~ The Modern Vocalist World
Western N.Y.
adolph@themodernvocalist.com
http://www.themodernvocalist.com/profile/AdolphNamlik
Email : chief188@hughes.net
716~257~9606
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#7 2014-11-23 21:01:18

m.i.r.
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Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
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Re: question

Hey guys thanks for all the replies, seems i was right about it being a quality forum. Well here is a sample i did on my cell phone right when i parked before walking in store. Its from f4 to a4 to c5, or abouts since i have no reference right now. First couple let the larynx ride up a bit and the tranger down, the end ones just let it cover some without raising larynx. And quiet honestly now i think i have really screwed myself. I have been dinking with tone so much now i am all out of wack and i hate all the tones now ha ha. And just am completely off now. Def need to seek professional help. If any more samples are wanted i will do whatever needed.

Oh and ron, i have no problem with the bel canto school. I think power wise you can beat it, at least that was the theory. That is why i went that direction. I just havent found a teacher yet that is interested in using that towards a more modern sound.

https://app.box.com/s/3b7tnqzcgar46u2vp45y

Sorry updating link

Last edited by m.i.r. (2014-11-23 21:22:04)

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#8 2014-11-23 21:25:24

m.i.r.
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Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
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Re: question

Oh and ronws, i actually live in north dallas myself. I just say dallas for ease of tongue

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#9 2014-11-23 22:38:23

Owen Korzec
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Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
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Re: question

Both approaches you are doing sound great, so the next question is, how do these approaches hold up in the context of a song?

You sound more advanced so if I were you I would make damn sure that whatever coach you pick does not only teach vocal technique as a foundation, but can also sing songs in a way you like because that is what you seem to want to move on to. Technique will never leave your stylistic training, it just becomes technique for the sake of sound rather than hitting notes.

You already have a solid technique foundation of properly staying in full voice and shifting resonance. That C5 is in your full voice range. It's sadly rare to find a coach that can actually demonstrate that because it is so hard to develop. Make sure whatever coach you get next can do that themselves and then add contemporary stylistic elements to it. And of course explain it all in a way you understand. Learning the combination of all of that would do wonders for your voice.

That being said, skype lessons are fantastic - virtually identical experience to in-person lessons. I think to find the type of coach a more advanced singer like you will need, you will probably need to do it via skype anyways because it would probably be tough to find a coach locally that's good enough to take you to the next level, not just as vocal technician but a SINGER. You also might have to be willing to pay a good sum for a high quality coach (but don't just go by money alone, many of them severely overcharge), but I think after 4 years you should be at the point where you can compromise frequency of lessons for better quality - a great lesson once a month for instance.

Hope that helps

Last edited by Owen Korzec (2014-11-23 22:39:38)

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#10 2014-11-23 23:24:41

m.i.r.
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Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
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Re: question

Thank you very much for the kind criticism. Either type of the tone on the recording holds up just fine actually saying words and a song. I actually feel much more free singing in that type of manner than the classical configuration. This week i am dinking around with shes gone and a depeche mode song forgot which one, i like doing polar opposites to work on chest and head. I will do recordings a little later if i have the time. One of my biggest concerns right now is the larynx raising some if i want to dump the classical cover a4 and above. Like if 1 was yawn position and 10 swallow position, a4 and above is prob 7-8ish no higher until i hit my peak at c6. It has been burned in my head to not let the layrnx move, if my old teacher saw that he would hit me with a bat. They all spoke highly of my "classical sound", but i really enjoy singing more in a more modern way. Feels more free and less hard on everything.  But this larynx thing is driving me nuts just because of how much it was burned in my head, like eat your vegetables as a kid lol. I have heard people say you can reach very high with a lowered larynx and still have a modern tone, but never actually heard any demos of such. Then the actually timber and tone i am not sure of either since this modern tone is very new to me. Also since I am my own worst critic my brain doesnt provide much positive feed back ha ha. Sorry started babbling

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#11 2014-11-23 23:33:01

m.i.r.
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Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
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Re: question

And yes I am def looking for a good teacher, after looking in my area for so long, i finally decided to check out the internet route. Though not saying there are no good teachers in dallas, just havent came across one yet. Or good sounds harsh, more like not understanding the direction i am trying to take. After hearing some of the awesome singers that are on this forum, i figure hell should just put it out there to these guys, bet something good will come of it. And meet some cool people along the way.

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#12 2014-11-24 00:57:18

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: question

m.i.r. wrote:

Oh and ronws, i actually live in north dallas myself. I just say dallas for ease of tongue

I live near Sherman.

Anyway, it's okay to eat vegetables, just eat the vegetables that you want. I don't like brussel sprouts but I like spinach. And the peppery taste of collard greens. To continue the simile ...


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#13 2014-11-24 03:13:38

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
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Re: question

Wow once again I really appreciate everyones kind responses, completely unexpected. As to the answer to the teacher question. Its just a new area to me actually letting the larynx move up some. So i guess i was worried i was going to possibly damage something. As i said i was beat in the head with the "if your larynx moves you will die a horrible and painful death" in the bel canto/opera world. But i am enjoying it and i feel no pain, discomfort, or loss of stamina. It almost feels better in a way. Just was hoping it wasnt going to do any long term damage. Also still working on the transition to the modern sound and timber. Some vowels are still getting me, like the closed ones, i automatically deepen and gets a little classical like.

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#14 2014-11-24 03:16:53

m.i.r.
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Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
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Re: question

ChumelsVanCogle wrote:

m.i.r. wrote:

https://app.box.com/s/3b7tnqzcgar46u2vp45y

Sorry updating link

dunno what you mean by covering, covering is usually pure laryngeal, your example doesn't really show that.

The last two at the end. I kept larnyx lowered and didnt engage the twanger(easier than spelling out what it really is, though i guess it would be quicker than typing this whole thing out lol). Increased the lower overtones and dampened the higher a bit. Not a huge difference though.

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#15 2014-11-24 04:37:05

Owen Korzec
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Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
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Re: question

Just let your larynx move up dude! It's not going to cause problems unless it comes up so high that you feel it start to hurt a bit.

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#16 2014-11-24 05:09:06

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
Reputation :   

Re: question

Owen Korzec wrote:

Just let your larynx move up dude! It's not going to cause problems unless it comes up so high that you feel it start to hurt a bit.

Yes sir!!!!:) :)   That is not very clear, but i think i get it lol

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#17 2014-11-24 22:35:15

FelipeCarvalho
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From: Brasil
Registered: 2011-07-28
Posts: 2889
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Re: question

The samples sound very frail, from just what is in there, teacher and training.

Is there a song where any specific problem can be heard?

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#18 2014-11-24 22:48:44

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: question

Owen Korzec wrote:

Just let your larynx move up dude! It's not going to cause problems unless it comes up so high that you feel it start to hurt a bit.

It could definitely cause a problem, one thing is for sure if the larynx is always riding high and the vowel isn't keeping it neutral, you will always have a tough time with closed vowels and singing in the pocket. You will get shouty and it won't blend nicely. You never want to hold it down  but you also don't waNt it shooting straight up


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#19 2014-11-24 23:59:28

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
Reputation :   

Re: question

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

The samples sound very frail, from just what is in there, teacher and training.

Is there a song where any specific problem can be heard?

You know you might have hit the nail on the head. I think that has been my hold up so far. I keep trying to lighten the voice, backing off support, trying to not move as much mass. I think i have ended up with a voice lacking balls and beef. Maybe just keep all the weight and not try to round the vowels as much as classical style instead.. I am going to experiment shortly.....and yes agree practice and teacher lol.

Oh fyi Felipe your faithfully cover was sweet, really like that bluesy undertone you have. And daniel you have a killer voice as well, smooth but has some nuts behind it.

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#20 2014-11-25 00:11:40

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: question

Thanks!!!!!


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#21 2014-11-25 12:57:25

FelipeCarvalho
TMV Forum Member
From: Brasil
Registered: 2011-07-28
Posts: 2889
Reputation :   61 
Website

Re: question

Thanks m.i.r. :)

I did not mean frail in the sense of lacking energy, more in the idea of sounding like you are about to break at any second, if anything I would say that it needs to be MORE rounded.

Were you trying to get away from the classical sound by just closing down space? Try doing the same you would normally do and adding an upper smile to it (record the result so that you can hear, it will feel almost the same).

Last edited by FelipeCarvalho (2014-11-25 13:13:31)

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#22 2014-11-25 18:45:58

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
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Re: question

you do not have to actively lighten anything.  think in the tone and the voice will follow your thought and intention.

this will help you create space and height for the folds to lose mass naturally as the pitch rises.

it took me years to figure this out.

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#23 2014-11-26 01:26:17

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
Reputation :   

Re: question

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

Thanks m.i.r. :)

I did not mean frail in the sense of lacking energy, more in the idea of sounding like you are about to break at any second, if anything I would say that it needs to be MORE rounded.

Were you trying to get away from the classical sound by just closing down space? Try doing the same you would normally do and adding an upper smile to it (record the result so that you can hear, it will feel almost the same).

I am impressed, that is something tough to pick up on, you definitely have teachers ears. That was about 60 percent chord closure for me. Allergies have been bad for me(they always are all the time lol)and right now there is alot of post nasal drip. It takes me about 3 hours after getting up and, different warm ups through out the day to clear the swelling up and excessive mucus. In that sample i was holding the compression back quite a bit to keep from blowing the folds apart, and i was sitting down in a bad position pulling up to the store so that made controlling the back pressure even more unstable. I should have waited till later on during the day to do a much better sample when i had full closure and upright, but i got impatient lol.  Anyways, that is pretty cool you picked up on that from a crappy cell phone recording.

Oh and yes, in answer to your question. Have been attempting to close some space to compress and brighten the tone a bit more. However, have already learned not the best idea lol. I am just free swinging right now. However, seeing you come from a classical back ground as well, i see some light at the end of the tunnel.

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#24 2014-11-26 01:29:33

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
Reputation :   

Re: question

VIDEOHERE wrote:

you do not have to actively lighten anything.  think in the tone and the voice will follow your thought and intention.

this will help you create space and height for the folds to lose mass naturally as the pitch rises.

it took me years to figure this out.

Thanks for the advice, i was working around some ideas like that last night and seemed to have some positive direction. I have def learned one thing, dont try to mess with the chord closure. I became so used to solid chord closure i am all out of wack if i lose that safety net. Then i start over supporting, and all the lovely stuff that follows that chain reaction.

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#25 2014-11-27 21:15:05

Steven Fraser
Charter Member of TMV Voice Council
From: Plano, Texas
Registered: 2008-11-22
Posts: 1801
Reputation :   101 

Re: question

m.i.r. wrote:

Oh and ronws, i actually live in north dallas myself. I just say dallas for ease of tongue

Hi...

How far North? I'm in Plano...


Best Regards,

Steven Fraser

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#26 2014-11-27 21:22:13

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
Reputation :   

Re: question

Ha ha thats awesome. That is where i live, close to custer and 15th. I have read alot of your posts while i was just a guest here reading all the random discussions. You seem quite well informed on all aspects of vocal production. Pleasure to finally talk to you.

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#27 2014-11-27 22:17:10

Steven Fraser
Charter Member of TMV Voice Council
From: Plano, Texas
Registered: 2008-11-22
Posts: 1801
Reputation :   101 

Re: question

m.i.r. wrote:

Ha ha thats awesome. That is where i live, close to custer and 15th. I have read alot of your posts while i was just a guest here reading all the random discussions. You seem quite well informed on all aspects of vocal production. Pleasure to finally talk to you.

The sentiment is mutual.

So, now to some thoughts about your question...

How to get a 'Modern' ( that is, nonclassical) tone higher in the range? 

I think it's useful in this endeavor to consider what makes this kind of vocalism work...what makes it expressive, consistent, powerful and sustainable.  The technique which accomplishes this must obey all the rules of physics and physiology that classical technique does, but with sometimes different emphases.

In my opinion, the place to start morphing good classical phonation toward a more modern style is to re-study vowel shapes. The particular shapes that are chosen must be resonant ones, or the voice will not 'ring'.  The keys, I think, are in the particular way that the vowels are approached in the middle voice and upper middle voice (shortened away from the classical standards) and how they are modified on the way to the higher range to maintain resonance, while at the same time NOT introducing undesirable constriction.

The specific exercises I would recommend to do this are the onset and the Siren on the alternative vowels. The particular vowels will depend on the musical genre you are desiring, but I think starting with the short ones, I.e., the ones that Italian does not use (ih, eh, uh, oe (foot), ae (hat) ), and then shading the long vowels toward them.

As the siren approaches the top, you still have to trend the vowels toward UH and a smile-ey embouchure, but the set up in the middle and the upper middle will have a nonclassical effect on the listener when applied within a song.

On allowing various vertical positions of the larynx... That is one technique to maintain alignment of the 2nd harmonic with the first Formant on various note/vowel combinations.  However, it has limits that may not be consistent with your repertoire goals. Consider combining smile-width  and jaw-drop changes to assist in fine-tuning of the resonances.

Support and twang... Not so different in modern and classical.  You gotta have them both, all the time.

I hope this is helpful.

Last edited by Steven Fraser (2014-11-27 22:17:55)


Best Regards,

Steven Fraser

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#28 2014-11-27 23:01:31

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
Reputation :   

Re: question

It is very helpfull steven, as I believe I have been leaning that way through just trial and error. Since when I posted this question, i have returned to my original closure and compression of what i picked up through classical study. However, have been messing with the vowels alot in ways you just suggested though not on purpose, just from recording, listening then repeat lol. However, now after reading your post i shall directly work on those specific vowels. I have felt much better returning to the fold closure and compression i know, it has brought the ring back i was missing and i have been liking the tone and timber, as well as my vibrato returning.

Two questions though. First, what is your opinion on the smile technique? I have had good luck with it, as it adds to brightness and whatnot. However, in the classical school, that is said to constrict the folds, and oval/down technique does not. However i feel no constriction by switching to that, and i like the tone.

Second, what is your opinion are the larynx and twang? After returning to what i knew, my larynx is under control again though i still like to let the larynx raise a bit and twang a bit heavier after 4bflat. However, as you well know i am sure, that is considered damaging in thr classical school as well. I feel freedom and happy there, i just figured i would get your thoughts as you seem versed on many different schools of thought.

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#29 2014-11-28 11:49:01

Steven Fraser
Charter Member of TMV Voice Council
From: Plano, Texas
Registered: 2008-11-22
Posts: 1801
Reputation :   101 

Re: question

m.i.r. wrote:

Two questions though. First, what is your opinion on the smile technique? I have had good luck with it, as it adds to brightness and whatnot. However, in the classical school, that is said to constrict the folds, and oval/down technique does not. However i feel no constriction by switching to that, and i like the tone.

Second, what is your opinion are the larynx and twang? After returning to what i knew, my larynx is under control again though i still like to let the larynx raise a bit and twang a bit heavier after 4bflat. However, as you well know i am sure, that is considered damaging in thr classical school as well. I feel freedom and happy there, i just figured i would get your thoughts as you seem versed on many different schools of thought.

M.i.r.,   To your first question, I see no issue widening the embouchure, and dropping the jaw, if done without undue tension. Very, very many fine classical singers do  these for formant tuning, which is what is going on when selecting alternative vowels.  The smile shortens the vocal tract overall, raising F1 and F2.

As to the 2nd...letting the larynx rise is the 'dirty little secret' of some fine-voiced classical singers in the very high range. If done without constricting tension to accomplish formant tuning, the singer and the audience will both enjoy it.  The twang..., vocal power,and projection depend on it, but avoid conflating over - registration with twang.  Keep the twang consistent, and let the registration adjust smoothly as it should.  All the finest classical singers I have sung with or have heard do this.

I hope this is helpful.

Last edited by Steven Fraser (2014-11-28 11:50:00)


Best Regards,

Steven Fraser

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#30 2014-11-28 20:14:15

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
Reputation :   

Re: question

Steven, you are a scholar among men. Thank you very much for the answer, it also makes tons of sense as well. Simple knowledge of sound waves makes it clear high frequency responds better to a smaller acoustical enviroment. Plus it just feels better and sounds better letting a slight smile along with a slightly raised layrnx past a certain point.

It makes you wonder why teachers pound in the ground a low larynx. I know adding length to the track adds volume as well as depth at many points. I could also see pounding a beginners head into never letting the larynx move getting them used to the lowered position. It seems though once the student has acquired control of support, closure, ect...the teacher would start on format tuning, letting the student know letting the larynx adjust is ok.  Thanks again for taking the time to reply with an intelligent answer, you are like the boards yoda lol.

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