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#151 2014-05-22 15:51:14

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Dante,

I believe we would have to sit down one on one to be exactly clear on the vowels due to our language differences (phonology). Though I believe I know what you are referring to given the clips you've posted. :)

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2014-05-22 15:51:14

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#152 2014-05-22 15:54:40

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

Well, it matters because what people will do will depend on that phonology. It actually prevents someone to even understand what you are trying to say without knowing exactly the vowel you mention.


And, its not really that the "amplitude can't pass", but rather that a larger opening on the exit of the tube transfers power more efficiently to the ambient (better coupling).

Sure, if you look at it from that point of view I agree it matters. Larger amplitudes = larger pressure differences = larger volume. :)

Last edited by Martin H (2014-05-22 16:29:19)

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#153 2014-05-22 16:08:25

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

jonpall wrote:

I'll tell you why we say "aaaaargh" when we're we're in pain and "hey" when someone is stealing your car.

If you say the Ah vowel with lots of volume but also quite a bit of vocal cord compression (like when you have a tummy ache), the voice usually distorts slightly and then you have a sound that everyone recognizes as someone being in pain. You don't necessarily want as much volume as humanly possible. You want (subconciously) a sound that describes the pain you're in and that aaaargh is usually what humans utter when in pain, or something similar.

Now, if someone is stealing your car, shouting an "aaaargh" with distortion and not the biggest vowel in the world is a bad idea because above else, you want to be HEARD. So you instinctively choose the biggest vowel and try to be as loud as possible (without thinking about it, because you're thinking of your car, right?).

Or, in the case of most of us vocal nerds here, we would actually think and analyze all that in our heads and when we're done, the car thief is far away with our car. Then we go "aaaargh".

It's interesting and I do agree. I would still bet my hat that you'll be able to make a louder sound on EH than AH.

Also there happen to be a famous cheering song used at large sports venues. And I believe it's not a coincident that it goes: OH - LEH - OH -  LEH - OH - LEH - OH - LEEEEEEEEH:

Last edited by Martin H (2014-05-22 16:12:47)

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#154 2014-05-22 16:43:05

jco5055
TMV Forum Member
From: Chicago
Registered: 2012-03-30
Posts: 216
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

JayMC wrote:

If you want to get primitive, here goes. This is just for luls but when babies cry I hear the vowel "ih" or "eh" with extreme freakin' distortion.

Therefore the first vowel we're born using is NOT ah. I certainly find "Eh" and "Ih" to be very very useful in almost all cases :) Apparently babies do to!!!

Definitely has a lot of twang :D  Or in CVT terms I guess it's great Edge.

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#155 2014-05-22 16:47:39

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

JayMC wrote:

It's funny how we all struggle to hit these super high belting notes with distortion and babies literally do it effortlessly... even if a baby has thinner folds the distortion too is amaazing. Certainly would get any mother or father's attention.

It's important to be aware of the descend of the larynx. In infants the larynx hasn't descended and sits very high in the throat which is an optimal coordination for Belting or Edge and Distortion. :)

Last edited by Martin H (2014-05-22 16:49:23)

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#156 2014-05-22 16:56:29

Owen Korzec
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Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

jonpall wrote:

While we're on the subject, I must say that I don't understand why Ken Tamplin tells people to modify from Ah, to Oh, to Uh. Why not go directly from Ah to Uh? Why the sudden increase in vowel and then sudden decrease?

I believe Tamplin's "Oh" is actually pronounced more like what I know to be "Aw" so to my ears it actually sounds like Ah-Aw-Uh-Oo

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#157 2014-05-22 17:40:21

geno
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-10-30
Posts: 2059
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Khassera wrote:

Also, how does Seth Riggs' program compare with KTVA, CVT and Pillars? It's free, after all. Or at least it's on youtube in full.

Khassera - I've had tremendous success with it.  From the "creaky door" exercises and beyond.  I've practiced those exercises for a few months.  I started singing a tenor aria I hadn't sung in 6 months, and could do things with it I could never do before.  Like complete control over dynamics at any pitch.  And very relaxed singing.  It's funny how NOT working on a song - and just concentrating on exercises for a while - can give you unbelievable gains in a song that you hadn't worked on for a long time.

Last edited by geno (2014-05-22 17:42:02)

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#158 2014-05-22 17:44:29

geno
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Registered: 2009-10-30
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

jonpall wrote:

While we're on the subject, I must say that I don't understand why Ken Tamplin tells people to modify from Ah, to Oh, to Uh. Why not go directly from Ah to Uh? Why the sudden increase in vowel and then sudden decrease?

That's kind of the standard operatic / classical approach to vowel mods.  Tamplin is based on Bel Canto which is the italian approach to operatic singing.

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#159 2014-05-22 18:20:10

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

geno wrote:

Khassera wrote:

Also, how does Seth Riggs' program compare with KTVA, CVT and Pillars? It's free, after all. Or at least it's on youtube in full.

Khassera - I've had tremendous success with it.  From the "creaky door" exercises and beyond.  I've practiced those exercises for a few months.  I started singing a tenor aria I hadn't sung in 6 months, and could do things with it I could never do before.  Like complete control over dynamics at any pitch.  And very relaxed singing.  It's funny how NOT working on a song - and just concentrating on exercises for a while - can give you unbelievable gains in a song that you hadn't worked on for a long time.

Thanks for the input again, Geno. :)

Didn't you say that you did some SS/MM at some point? How did that fare out? I started with those, picked up on something else here and there and I still think it's got some really good stuff in it. REALLY. GOOD. STUFF. I understand that most of it is copycat from Riggs' program.. But I felt they were more uhh... Refined?

Last edited by Khassera (2014-05-22 18:20:33)


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#160 2014-05-22 18:35:52

geno
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Registered: 2009-10-30
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Khassera - I never tried the SS stuff beyond watching some of the youtube videos.  I never warmed up to Brett Manning's approach, but if you picked up some good stuff then that's great.   

Different singers are in the need for different things.  I'm a I'm a heavy singer and have good adduction but have the tendency to press too much and sing too loud.  The Seth Riggs stuff was exactly what I needed.  Others may have the opposite problem and need other things.

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#161 2014-05-22 19:24:04

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Dante,

That sounds great. In regards to loudness, ringy or clear I believe it's important to be aware of the psychoacoustics when determining these factors. It would be interesting to measure the raw sound pressure levels when you sing an AH and an EH at full power, especially in the higher range. What we perceive is not always what happens. A great example is twang (2500-3000Hz) and it's effect on the human ear in regards to perceived loudness:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Perceived_Human_Hearing.svg

:)

Last edited by Martin H (2014-05-22 19:41:35)

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#162 2014-05-23 00:16:23

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Danielformica wrote:

yeah but what is aaaaaagggghhh? i don't know? i say ow!

I use language I cannot use in this forum.

Although, when I have been shocked at work, it's more of a grunt.

But stub my toe, bang my thumb, no, that calls for creative cursing. Chains of curse words in combinations you never thought of. A skill I learned from my mother.

Imagine curse words used on a chain like that of Steve Carrel in "Evan Almighty" and "The Forty-year-old Virgin."

And sometimes I use those, too.

"Alex Lifeson!"

"Kelly Clarkson"

"Architect!" (yes, I have said that one out loud, so I am a confirmed "pottty-mouth."

\m/

Last edited by ronws (2014-05-23 00:19:14)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#163 2014-05-23 00:20:27

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Although probably the worst curse word I have used is "city inspector."

Now, I need to rinse with Listerine.
:)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#164 2014-05-23 12:01:50

FelipeCarvalho
TMV Forum Member
From: Brasil
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Martin well, amplitude on the ambient air can only happen if the coupling produces a favorable power transfer. With no power, a high amplitude will not move enough airmass, and the ambient air will simply dampen the system. The amplitude of the sound does not "pass" anywhere, what is passing is the DC flow. Sound does not "pass", its conducted and decay.

The impedance of a small straw would be adequate for power transfer at higher frequencies, for example. Thats one of the reasons occluded phonation is nice to perceive and control twang.

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#165 2014-05-23 12:32:00

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Felipe,

Thanks for your explanation. Conducting it is. :)

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#166 2014-05-23 14:04:45

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Phil Moufarrege wrote:

jonpall wrote:

While we're on the subject, I must say that I don't understand why Ken Tamplin tells people to modify from Ah, to Oh, to Uh. Why not go directly from Ah to Uh? Why the sudden increase in vowel and then sudden decrease?

Because jumping to UH is closing down the sound way too early.

But why not gradually and constantly narrow the vowel?

Why first widen (from Ah to Oh), and then narrow (from Oh to Uh to Oo)?

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#167 2014-05-24 00:09:49

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7197
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

i never found i had to go through it with oh...

in fact, i had better luck (at least for me) with ah, aw, uh, oo, or just ah to oo

it starts out very systematic but eventually the whole thing get so automatic and ingrained you don't even think about it anymore. but that narrowing part has to be felt.

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#168 2014-05-24 02:20:28

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Maybe it's a dialect thing - the Australian "oh" might be the American "aw"???

I'm with Bob here. The question is, if it is AH->AW->UH->OO, is THAT a gradual narrowing?

I say, if it works, who cares? Plus we're not changing vowels like we would in speech, we're getting the larynx and soft palate involved and all kinds of fancy stuff...it's a singer's world that just doesn't exist in an IPA chart

I think it's a bit futile to argue about these vowel shades in terms of their vowels in text or IPA or whatever...maybe not for coaches, but as a student I find these modifications are things I just need to HEAR and FEEL to fully understand and execute with accuracy

Last edited by Owen Korzec (2014-05-24 02:23:24)

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#169 2014-05-24 06:05:07

highmtn
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-03-31
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

To clear up just a little bit of confusion here regarding KTVA mods for the AH vowel:

The KTVA modification "O" is "o" (as in loft), not "O" as in snow.  This is from the original KTVA lessons.  This same modification is also referred to as "aw".  These are two different ways of spelling the same sound.  Earlier Tamplin lessons referred to "o" as in loft.  Updated Tamplin lessons use "aw" as in loft.  Both are referring to the same sound, same modification, a slightly closed-down Ah.  Ah and Aw are very similar to one another.  The latter is a little more closed... just a shade more closed.

After that comes oo (as in hook). This oo is being referred to here on this forum as "uh".  They are the Same Sound,  Different Spellings.  As Phil says, done right, you feel this sound as a yawning sensation in the back of the throat.  It provides release into pockets for higher resonance, and a pathway to the ooh.

Finally, after oo (as in hook) comes ooh (as in who).

The progression from AH through these mods all the way to Ooh is done in gradual shadings.  It is a continuum.

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#170 2014-05-25 11:37:39

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

A guy that sounds smart and reasonable wrote:

To me the problem with most vocal instruction is that objective, proven, universal training methods are ignored for more mystical and subjective training methods.
Both have validity. However, it takes a deep sensitivity within an individual to find out his or her preferred training style. The objective methods should be trained to everyone. The subjective methods to.. well.. A subject, or a person.

This type of thinking is very appealing to me.

Last edited by Khassera (2014-05-25 11:46:36)


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#171 2014-11-25 16:05:32

baekjiwon
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-25
Posts: 2
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Anyone who is thinking about buying KTVA, please BE AWARE of the following:
I posted a question regarding the comparison of KTVA and Four Pillars of Singing on KTVA forum. Member highmtn (who is a moderator on KTVA forum) immediately deleted my question and BANNED me completely from the KTVA forum, saying that it is forbidden to compare KTVA to other courses. I only asked if any KTVA members, who had experience with the Four Pillars of Singing, could provide a detailed comparison of the two programs, beyond the fact that Tamplin encourages late bridging while Lunte advocates early bridging. I did NOT say anything that could imply that people should buy Four Pillars of Singing instead of KTVA, I only asked for an objective comparison. BEWARE! KTVA FORUM MODERATOR DELETES ANYTHING OTHER THAN POSITIVE REVIEWS (INCLUDING QUESTIONS FOR OBJECTIVE COMPARISON OF KTVA TO OTHER COURSES). At least, this was my experience with them. In fact, I saw people on different sites complaining that after they purchased KTVA and then posted on the KTVA forum something which was not 100% positive opinion, their comments were immediately deleted. BEWARE!

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#172 2014-11-28 09:11:03

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Phil Moufarrege wrote:

Hi Baekjiwon,
From what I saw it seems like you were also banned off Harmony Central.  Would be interested to see exactly what you wrote on KTVA forum word for word including the exchange with highmtn as I have heard a totally different story to the one you have been spamming around the internet currently.
I personally haven't seen any censorship on that forum although I could be wrong, but I see a lot more on this forum having been banned twice here already LOL!

I agree. I recall there being a thread there about how a student is using two different programs to complement each other, saying what KTVA falls short of and what the other program(s) do better, and highmtn has said something along the lines of "do whatever works," also stating that some programs are great, not only KTVA.

I think Highmtn is KTVA's Adolph Namlik, so you'd expect him to ooze positiveness when it comes to KTVA, that shouldn't be a surprise.


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#173 2014-11-28 09:25:58

Clevertrevor76
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-28
Posts: 11
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

baekjiwon wrote:

Anyone who is thinking about buying KTVA, please BE AWARE of the following:
I posted a question regarding the comparison of KTVA and Four Pillars of Singing on KTVA forum. Member highmtn (who is a moderator on KTVA forum) immediately deleted my question and BANNED me completely from the KTVA forum, saying that it is forbidden to compare KTVA to other courses. I only asked if any KTVA members, who had experience with the Four Pillars of Singing, could provide a detailed comparison of the two programs, beyond the fact that Tamplin encourages late bridging while Lunte advocates early bridging. I did NOT say anything that could imply that people should buy Four Pillars of Singing instead of KTVA, I only asked for an objective comparison. BEWARE! KTVA FORUM MODERATOR DELETES ANYTHING OTHER THAN POSITIVE REVIEWS (INCLUDING QUESTIONS FOR OBJECTIVE COMPARISON OF KTVA TO OTHER COURSES). At least, this was my experience with them. In fact, I saw people on different sites complaining that after they purchased KTVA and then posted on the KTVA forum something which was not 100% positive opinion, their comments were immediately deleted. BEWARE!

I'm a member @ KTVA and it clearly states it's not an open forum to discuss other programs. They make no apologies for it and they don't hide the fact about it. It's not an open vocal forum. It's designed for members who have purchased the course to discuss the techniques, webinars etc... that ktva use. There's a whole bunch of sub forums that are not viewable by the public. The forum is heavily moderated, no doubt but I believe it is for the student's benefit so they are not mixing, matching and guessing through different pedagogy. If they wanted to sell you the course, there would be a 300 page thread of flame war against this program and that's exactly what that forum tries to avoid.

Kens course is very expensive as are his lessons but he also knows who his target audience/ market/students and that is somewhat reflected in the forums as well. There's a guy on there who claims to have only been singing for X amount of time and is already getting near professional results. He gets fast answer's and sometimes from even ken himself. Then you get guys who have been at it for years struggling to make progress and it can take days for a reply. But like said above, I have never seen a thread deleted which has been asking for help but I have seen certain posters favoured.

Last edited by Clevertrevor76 (2014-11-28 09:35:39)

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#174 2014-11-28 17:17:04

Adolph Namlik
Executive Director, The Modern Vocalist World
From: "No Name", New York
Registered: 2008-11-15
Posts: 748
Reputation :   17 

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Khassera wrote:

Phil Moufarrege wrote:

Hi Baekjiwon,
From what I saw it seems like you were also banned off Harmony Central.  Would be interested to see exactly what you wrote on KTVA forum word for word including the exchange with highmtn as I have heard a totally different story to the one you have been spamming around the internet currently.
I personally haven't seen any censorship on that forum although I could be wrong, but I see a lot more on this forum having been banned twice here already LOL!

I agree. I recall there being a thread there about how a student is using two different programs to complement each other, saying what KTVA falls short of and what the other program(s) do better, and highmtn has said something along the lines of "do whatever works," also stating that some programs are great, not only KTVA.

I think Highmtn is KTVA's Adolph Namlik, so you'd expect him to ooze positiveness when it comes to KTVA, that shouldn't be a surprise.

Excuse me ???

Have I banned anyone for promoting other coaches ?
Have I "slammed" other coaches ?

The answer to both questions is NO !!!

The only bans I have done is for violations of the forum rules or spammers/"bots" !

I see the implication(s) here :

1)For the past several years, I have been Featuring and Spotlighting many of the coaches in our "Social Media Section".

2) And you are free to read my profile in the Social Media Section as well.....

Additionally, when I first met Robert several years ago, one of our many goals for The Modern Vocalist World was to bring in the best vocals instructors and other vocal experts from around the world. I 'm sure Robert will agree that we have accomplished that.


Adolph C. Namlik
Executive Director ~ The Modern Vocalist World
Western N.Y.
adolph@themodernvocalist.com
http://www.themodernvocalist.com/profile/AdolphNamlik
Email : chief188@hughes.net
716~257~9606
"My Life's A Stage"

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#175 2014-11-28 21:44:24

Clint Torres
TMV Forum Member
From: Where the sun don't shine
Registered: 2014-10-03
Posts: 83
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

So much for the new forum section: "Vocal Coaches and Training Programs"

For some strange reason, it seems that since the inception of that new area of the forum more posts, like this one,  have been made here in the techniques section than over there.   I'm just sayin' :D

Last edited by Clint Torres (2014-11-28 21:45:15)

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#176 2014-11-28 21:55:02

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Maybe Clint... its a good idea, but if people don't gravitate there at the moment, its no big deal... The new forum will be played out different... we are only about a week away..

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#177 2014-11-29 09:42:07

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Adolph Namlik wrote:

Excuse me ???

You're excused.

Adolph Namlik wrote:

Have I banned anyone for promoting other coaches ?

I didn't say Highmtn banned anyone, I don't think he's able to.

Adolph Namlik wrote:

Have I "slammed" other coaches ?

Define slamming and I'll give you my opinion. Very clearly, please.

Adolph Namlik wrote:

The answer to both questions is NO !!! [/]

You didn't really need me there then, did you?

Adolph Namlik wrote:

The only bans I have done is for violations of the forum rules or spammers/"bots" !

Which you have repeatedly announced is your job here, and I'm very grateful that you're doing it. Spammers and bots suck butt.

Adolph Namlik wrote:

I see the implication(s) here :

1)For the past several years, I have been Featuring and Spotlighting many of the coaches in our "Social Media Section".

2) And you are free to read my profile in the Social Media Section as well…..

I don't have the login stuff for the SM section so I'm totally blind to that. If it's true, then it's great! Although I'd totally get why you didn't do it.

Adolph Namlik wrote:

Additionally, when I first met Robert several years ago, one of our many goals for The Modern Vocalist World was to bring in the best vocals instructors and other vocal experts from around the world. I 'm sure Robert will agree that we have accomplished that.

Into TVS or TMV? TMV Has some awesome coaches. TVS' coaches are totally alien to me since I don't follow them as much, I don't know who they are, and if they're posting on the forum like the other coaches it's gone unnoticed for me I'm afraid.

Highmtn is Ken's right hand man, or so he comes across. That was the simile.


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#178 2014-11-29 14:14:46

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Khassera, you own "The Four Pillars of Singing" that is TVS...

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#179 2014-11-29 14:28:56

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Robert Lunte wrote:

Khassera, you own "The Four Pillars of Singing" that is TVS...

I thought The Vocalist Studio was the school/methodology and 4 Pillars of Singing the program. What I was saying is that I don't know the TVS Certified instructors, and I am not aware who they are and if they are on this forum. I was talking about the coaches without their own programs.


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#180 2014-11-29 14:40:46

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Oh... my bad, was confused... how is your TVS training coming along?  I want to be sure that you are getting the help you need ?

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#181 2014-11-29 20:06:05

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

I haven't really gotten into it since I've had a bad case of laryngitis for a couple of weeks, but once I clear it I'll be sure to hack at it. If I ever get better, that is. Jesus christ.

I appreciate you asking. Thanks!

Last edited by Khassera (2014-11-29 20:06:45)


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#182 2014-11-29 20:14:24

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

well send me a private email or ping me here when you start you Foundation Building Routine.

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