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#1 2014-04-30 01:23:01

thematrixiam
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-04-21
Posts: 23
Reputation :   

KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Hey guys. I am curious on these three options.

How much do they differ?

What is the education background of the individuals? - no offence intended. I'm just curious if they have MAs in vocal studies.

Would I be better off trying to buy university textbooks?
....

Also, does it depend on what I am aiming for?.... I sing in church, and I also like singers such as Justin Timberlake, Jacob Hoggard, Josh Ramsay, and Gerald Eaton. I prefer singing in tune, melody and with skill over just belting.

Thanks in advance....

as a side note... with the 4pillars I noticed that you can get the option to add on a lesson with the digital format, or you can get 3 lessons with the student format. Are these 1 hour lessons? It does not say. Though, the online lessons as themselves are 1 hour long.

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2014-04-30 01:23:01

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#2 2014-04-30 01:35:49

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

For 4 Pillars, you might want to ask Robert Lunte, owner of our forum and author of that program. And you can call him. Any post of his includes his cell number. Just remember, he lives around the area of Seattle, Washington when considering time zones. Of the three systems you mentioned, I believe Robert studied voice in college but I don't recall what his major was or what level of degree he obtained.

And, no offense to you, and you probably do mean the best, but threads like this have had problems in the past. But, let us hope for the best, this time.

Ken Tamplin, with the KTVA, has a long list of pro credits as a singer for bands, mostly Christian rock bands, if I recall correctly.

Catherine Sadolin, author and originator of CVT, I don't know what her creds are, not having studied the system or read the book. But there are plenty here who have and maybe they will chime in. Her system is quite popular and the admin of her site, Henrik, is a prince among men, though his login looks like a Viking biker who would eat you for breakfast. :)

4 Pillars was a bit more head voice some years ago but Robert has grown his system to include chestier phonations and exercises for those who feel more comfortable with that or wish to achieve that sound.

You might also use the search function to find threads similar to this but those are a few years old and maybe people express themselves differently, these days.

Or, you can go the classical route you have mentioned in another thread with the books that you can get. A friend and former forum member who is studying legit opera with a college teacher in the subject also mentioned that you can get lessons from local voice majors and people in theater or opera. Real live lessons, paying as you go, when you can. The advantage of that being a person who hears you acoustically, in the same room.

As for deals in the other programs, I don't know. I have studied classical sources and of the modern singing systems you have mentioned, I have some familiarity with 4 Pillars and not a lot with the others.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#3 2014-04-30 03:30:46

thematrixiam
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-04-21
Posts: 23
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

I'll probably still go the classical route for somethings. Such as private lessons from my opera singer friend.
I also stopped by my music store today and asked them about vocal methods/technique books. It seems like they tend to not really stock too much in that area, Vocal training largely relying on the older method of Oral Traditions as opposed to writing out technique. The guy at the store is looking into getting me some more technical books in. So I'll probably go with some of those. But I also like the idea of adding something extra like one of these courses.

I have Singing Success. I found it largely monotonous and slow to get into. It might work for others. But the format was just too boring for me. It's also poorly organized. I still go back to it sometimes for references on warmups and such. But I can just as easy find this stuff on youtube.

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#4 2014-04-30 03:40:36

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

thematrixiam wrote:

Hey guys. I am curious on these three options.

How much do they differ?

What is the education background of the individuals? - no offence intended. I'm just curious if they have MAs in vocal studies.

Would I be better off trying to buy university textbooks?
....

Also, does it depend on what I am aiming for?.... I sing in church, and I also like singers such as Justin Timberlake, Jacob Hoggard, Josh Ramsay, and Gerald Eaton. I prefer singing in tune, melody and with skill over just belting.

Thanks in advance....

as a side note... with the 4pillars I noticed that you can get the option to add on a lesson with the digital format, or you can get 3 lessons with the student format. Are these 1 hour lessons? It does not say. Though, the online lessons as themselves are 1 hour long.

They are all great, you've essentially found the best three methods on the market.

They don't differ that much in the end result of how their students sing, there are slight differences but the differences in pedagogy and methodology between these - how they take you through the learning curve, is totally different for each one.

Just going from what I know - I studied TVS very extensively, currently studying under a teacher who uses a lot of KTVA-ish material/concepts

just comparing KTVA and TVS:
-TVS pedagogy is more complex and scientific, KTVA more simple and streamlined
-TVS is more of a head voice development, early bridging first then move it later, bring a strong head voice down to bridge with chest, kind of method. KTVA is more of a chest voice development, late bridging first then move it earlier, bring an open throat chest voice up to bridge with head, kind of method.

And those are really the only differences. The end product is, hopefully, exactly the same - bridging chest and head seamlessly, developing dynamic flexibility within that, and learning how to apply it to songs without "choking" by learning good vowel and consonant modifications, good embouchure, etc.

CVT, I have the book but I'm biased...I personally didn't like the method's approach, doesn't resonate with the way I prefer to think. So I will refrain from speaking about it especially since I haven't given the method a serious go.

Educational background, Rob studied voice in college, I think I recall reading he got a bachelor's in vocal performance but not sure. The other two folks. Worth noting that Rob and Ken both studied extensively with very notable teachers who had famous clients and that's where they derived most of their methodology. I have no idea where Catherine Sadolin got hers but I know that extensive scientific research was involved.

If you prefer that kind of lighter singing and non-belting then TVS might be a tad better for that, but what is honestly more important is that you can personally connect with the methodology and pedagogy. If you can't imagine yourself successfully learning with the approach it's not right for you.

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#5 2014-04-30 04:18:49

jco5055
TMV Forum Member
From: Chicago
Registered: 2012-03-30
Posts: 216
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

I agree with what Owen said, but I also would say whichever program let's you get the most skype /personal lessons within your budget.

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#6 2014-04-30 05:01:57

Seth
TMV Forum Member
From: Toronto
Registered: 2011-04-06
Posts: 158
Reputation :   
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

I just bought Pillars and am really impressed with the layout... It's such a cool concept. Robert has done a fantastic job with this thing. I had KTVA too, but it was like the opposite - weak presentation. I actually returned KTVA for that reason. That said, the lessons in each are solid. Robert puts a lot of emphasis on terminology and explaining why things work (which I initially thought would bother me, but am now enjoying). A lot of content in each, but Pillars is infinitely better organized. A notable difference between the approaches is Ken's emphasis on stretching the chest voice as high as Tenor C for dudes. Robert advocates bridging into head much lower, but both work towards having you sing in in a "mixed" kind of way (though Robert dislikes this term greatly). Or as Owen pointed out, to sing seamlessly between the registers.

CVT has the least content, in terms of files, but it works for people, as do books like The Tenor Voice by Frisell.


Check out my band, if ya want (please and/or thank you).

https://tothefields.bandcamp.com/

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#7 2014-04-30 05:47:02

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

jco5055 wrote:

I agree with what Owen said, but I also would say whichever program let's you get the most skype /personal lessons within your budget.

True, very very very important detail I forgot

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#8 2014-04-30 18:04:50

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Just pick either KTVA or 4 Pillars. Can't go wrong with either one.

Last edited by Khassera (2014-04-30 18:05:06)


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#9 2014-04-30 18:23:01

thematrixiam
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-04-21
Posts: 23
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

What is the total size of 4pillars? 6.6 gigs?

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#10 2014-05-01 00:09:29

thematrixiam
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-04-21
Posts: 23
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

how long does it take to get the order processed?

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#11 2014-05-01 01:39:48

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

The newest version of 4 Pillars is gigantic, I think bigger than the 2.0 that I got some of.

The newest version also offers mobile app. I forget what the price per year is. However, I think, if I were to choose, it would be either the hard media of dvd's or digital download, if you have the memory capacity in your device. Lots of vocalizes utilizing different intervals. I like the Journey one and the Layne Staley one, personally. What I find most instructive is listening to what Robert does with a vowel, even more than what words he says.

And he has one of the best vids on breathing that I have seen.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#12 2014-05-01 06:51:07

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

What bothers me about pillars is it gets updated very often, and the upgrades are chargeable.

Also, what bothers me about pillars is the heavy terminology. I swear, terminology is the basis for a cult. Kinda like CVT. That's why I like what Tamplin does. There's very little terms to learn since everything is simplified.

I understand why some don't like it. I usually hate oversimplification, but overcomplication is even worse.

That's not to say I'm not impressed by Lunte or dislike him. There's just some things I wish would've been done differently, but then it wouldn't stand out as much.

Last edited by Khassera (2014-05-01 07:10:23)


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#13 2014-05-01 12:57:01

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

the pillars updates are hard to keep up with...what would help a lot is if the updates were free, not just discounted, to clients who purchased the full program. I feel like its only fair that if someone else can buy the updated version for original price, those of us who got older ones shouldn't have to pay more than them. Plus if potential clients catch on to this they might start waiting for new updates and as a result putting off their training, and thats not cool...But I understand where Rob is coming from, he makes a lot of changes in the updates and their mostly additive, so he needs compensation for his continued work. Can't please everybody.

At least its better than keeping outdated information circulating...SS got a bad rap for that with their self titled program

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#14 2014-05-01 12:59:19

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Or here would be a cool one - the updates could be free only to clients of both the program and a certain amount of Skype/private lessons...may be a good compromise?

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#15 2014-05-01 16:33:49

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Khassera wrote:

What bothers me about pillars is it gets updated very often, and the upgrades are chargeable.

Also, what bothers me about pillars is the heavy terminology. I swear, terminology is the basis for a cult. Kinda like CVT. That's why I like what Tamplin does. There's very little terms to learn since everything is simplified.

I understand why some don't like it. I usually hate oversimplification, but overcomplication is even worse.

That's not to say I'm not impressed by Lunte or dislike him. There's just some things I wish would've been done differently, but then it wouldn't stand out as much.

Lack of terminology does not mean that a contentious decision was made to make it simple...  more likely it means, the program doesn't have a methodology and the simple explanations are just what you get because thats all there is to give.  Getting less understanding and fewer tools to help you to understand is not a benefit to most people. It may be a benefit to to some that don't want to bother with learning the terminology or feel intimidated by the amount of real knowledge that is required to truly understand how the voice works, but most people are not like that. No, "Pillars" is not just a book full of good ideas or vocal tips... its a comprehensive program that not only explains things scientifically, it offers a methodology for training, 64 workouts, 40 video lectures, 40 video demonstrations of me doing the workouts, a 400 page, full color book, guide files and a user interface.. instead of just source files dumped into folders... It not only has 6.6 Gb of data, but it has features that are just not found in any other product... one reason for that is because... Im always improving my product.

Lastly, not wanting to deal with terminology is not an issue with the product...

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#16 2014-05-01 17:06:04

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Khassera wrote:

What bothers me about pillars is it gets updated very often, and the upgrades are chargeable.

Also, what bothers me about pillars is the heavy terminology. I swear, terminology is the basis for a cult. Kinda like CVT. That's why I like what Tamplin does. There's very little terms to learn since everything is simplified.

I understand why some don't like it. I usually hate oversimplification, but overcomplication is even worse.

That's not to say I'm not impressed by Lunte or dislike him. There's just some things I wish would've been done differently, but then it wouldn't stand out as much.

Dude, with all due respect, didn't you say you don't even own "Pillars"?  If you don't even own the thing, how can you pretend to "review" and make comment?  You and Owen go on to complain about how there are updates that you have to pay for...? 

Guys, ... grab some frickin wood and sit down and listen to me now.

"The Four Pillars of Singing" is updated and worked on and improved every day of my life for you (students)... to give you a better product and a better training experience... To give you the best I can give you! This is who and what TVS is about...  Now, I'm not going to name any names, but I can tell you, there are other teachers in this business, .... that don't update their products, that don't make improvements to the user interface, that do not explain things with terminology, that have not developed a training METHOD, that don't take personal phone calls, that don't answer huge personal emails and review your files at 1:00 in the morning (Owen?!) ... they Just don't go the extra mile to make the best product they can for you!  Why?  Because after they take your money, they don't care!! 

Its not a virtue to never have updates... its laziness, or something that another teacher just doesn't see important.  And if/when "another teacher" updates product... you better f****** believe its going to ask you to pay for it through your F****** nose and its going to be a HELL of a lot more then what I ask for... It pisses me off when you are getting complaints for things that are actually something you should be recognized for... But wait, there is more misinformation in the above posts... so keep reading...

Anyone that has the digital download, can synchronize their copy of digital "Pillars" right now and get every incremental update.  My digital download clients GET FREE INCREMENTAL UPDATES!  So your wrong on that point too...   Now then, from time to time, when I produce 20 more videos, improve the user interface, add training routines to the book... I sometimes ask for $40-$60 for major updates.

"The Four Pillars of Singing" has a 100%, 5-Star reviews on amazon.com and my own store at www.thevocaliststudiostore.com.  That is from real customers,... a perfect score! 

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#17 2014-05-01 18:48:13

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Robert Lunte wrote:

Lack of terminology does not mean that a contentious decision was made to make it simple...  more likely it means, the program doesn't have a methodology and the simple explanations are just what you get because thats all there is to give, get it?

Ehhhh I don't know about that. Not having a methodology sounds like you've got a grab-bag of ideas and you're poking at random until the student figures it out. That's really not how I see simplified teaching. I just see it taking core concepts and streamlining their learning so you don't NEED to have complex methodology around it.

It does require more from the student, though, and that's not something most people want. So it's a double edged blade, simplification is.

Why would anyone make an argument, for less explanation or less knowledge about the topic being discussed?

It's not an argument against science or concepts on the techniques or whatever. It's just something that's stuck out to me with pillars, and how people talk about respiration instead of support, dampening instead of lowering or neutralizing etc. This is why I was leary with CVT: Twang, to me, is more undescriptive than pharyngeal presence. At this point I don't really care if it's "not the same thing" when twang seems to have a philosophy weaved into it which I don't really care for. The point is: Using terminology should be like using latin: Using words that directly describe and "define" themselves instead of making stuff up. Curbing? What the f* is curbing?

These are not pillar terms, I know, so don't flame me for them.

Getting less understanding and fewer tools to help you to understand is not a benefit to most people. It may be a benefit to to some that don't want to bother with learning the terminology, but most people are not like that.

I have no problem learning terminology when it helps me. "Getting less understanding and fewer tools to help you understand" is twisting my words. Simplification doesn't necessarily have to mean taking stuff out. It's just making it simpler.

Lastly, being intimidated or put-off by terminology you don't understand or have to study a little bit to understand, is not an issue with the product...

This I agree with. As I said, these are considerations made by a consumer who's deciding what to consume.

Robert Lunte wrote:

Dude, with all due respect, didn't you say you don't even own "Pillars"?  If you don't even own the thing, how can you pretend to "review" and make comment?  You and Owen go on to complain about how there are updates that you have to pay for...?

I think I said before, and I'll say it again: These are my considerations and conclusions I've drawn from reading reviews and comments on this great forum here. :) I don't own pillars yet, and I already stated why that is. Now, on to reading your response on the updates, maybe I'll be straightened out.

And if/when "another teacher" updates product... you better f****** believe its going to ask you to pay for it through your F****** nose and its going to be a HELL of a lot more then what I ask for... It pisses me off when you are getting complaints for things that are actually something you should be recognized for...

Dear jeopardy, what is straw man fallacy?

But wait, there is more misinformation in the above posts... so keep reading...
Anyone that has the digital download, can synchronize their copy of digital "Pillars" right now and get every incremental update.

This is news, since there's no mention of it in the shopping page (http://www.thevocaliststudiostore.com/T … _p_27.html). This definitely turns the tables for me. Just to be clear: What is an incremental update? :)

My digital download clients GET FREE INCREMENTAL UPDATES!  So your wrong on that point too...

Thank you for straightening that out. If I've understood incremental updates correctly then this will make a difference. Actually it makes all the difference, and it adds value to the deal. :)

Now then, from time to time, when I produce 20 more videos, improve the user interface, add training routines to the book... I sometimes ask for $40-$60 for major updates.

Ok, good. I was under the impression that all versions of the pillars cost money to update. Glad to hear this.

"The Four Pillars of Singing" has a 100%, 5-Star reviews on amazon.com and my own store at www.thevocaliststudiostore.com.  That is from real customers,... a perfect score! 

I know, I've read through a ton of them. Which is why I've been trying to decide between a couple of good choices, the pillars being one of them.

Again: I'm not trying to bash your product or your school. I think you're one of the best voices, and you have high quality videos from what I've seen.

I'm sorry if I came off as a misinformant, that wasn't my intention. I was under the belief (from information gathered in this forum and deducted from the online shop) that your main product is prone to updates that cost, and that's something I don't feel like dealing with. I'm glad you cleared it up, thanks. :)

Last edited by Khassera (2014-05-01 18:55:18)


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#18 2014-05-01 19:17:49

bigmike092
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2013-06-15
Posts: 218
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

i dont see the problem with using making up a term like curbing, im pretty sure it has a pretty simple definition with a purpose, being that its used to define a sound and also make it easier to teach that sound as well as know when your doing it. its like asking whats the point of using terms like head and chest voice.

Twang, to me, is more undescriptive than pharyngeal presence

if you know those terms are interchangeable then i don't see why it's a problem.

but those are just my thoughts, of course your free to have your own.

Last edited by bigmike092 (2014-05-01 19:18:22)

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#19 2014-05-01 19:51:03

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

bigmike092 wrote:

whats the point of using terms like head and chest voice.

Head- and chest resonance makes sense. Curbing doesn't.

if you know those terms are interchangeable then i don't see why it's a problem.

Many don't. That's the whole point. Pharyngeal -> in the pharynx. Twang -> ????? Down south?

Are you just purposefully trying to make an argument on this? I hope you understand what my point is in the above comments. I can't make it more clear.

but those are just my thoughts, of course your free to have your own.

Yes. Thank Xenu for that. :)


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#20 2014-05-01 19:57:44

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Khassera wrote:

Head- and chest resonance makes sense. Curbing doesn't.

Curbing is not a made up term. Curbing means to restrain or keep in check. It's a description that fits very well with the quality and sensation of that specific vocal mode. So it makes pretty good sense in my opinion. Also if you consider the fact that chest and head voice have so many different definitions and thereby creates a lot of confusion. :)

Last edited by Martin H (2014-05-01 20:10:57)

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#21 2014-05-01 20:03:14

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Khassera wrote:

Many don't. That's the whole point. Pharyngeal -> in the pharynx. Twang -> ????? Down south?

When just saying "twang" you are making that specific sound. Also twang is a term for a specific sound of a dialect in US which is characterized by that whiny quality. So like Curbing it's a term that describes the quality of the sound.

So again, twang makes sense in my opinion. Actually pharyngeal makes less sense since the mechanism for that sound has nothing to do with the pharynx. :)

Last edited by Martin H (2014-05-01 20:12:31)

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#22 2014-05-01 20:11:01

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Khassera wrote:

Robert Lunte wrote:

Lack of terminology does not mean that a contentious decision was made to make it simple...  more likely it means, the program doesn't have a methodology and the simple explanations are just what you get because thats all there is to give, get it?

Ehhhh I don't know about that. Not having a methodology sounds like you've got a grab-bag of ideas and you're poking at random until the student figures it out. That's really not how I see simplified teaching. I just see it taking core concepts and streamlining their learning so you don't NEED to have complex methodology around it.

It does require more from the student, though, and that's not something most people want. So it's a double edged blade, simplification is.

Why would anyone make an argument, for less explanation or less knowledge about the topic being discussed?

It's not an argument against science or concepts on the techniques or whatever. It's just something that's stuck out to me with pillars, and how people talk about respiration instead of support, dampening instead of lowering or neutralizing etc. This is why I was leary with CVT: Twang, to me, is more undescriptive than pharyngeal presence. At this point I don't really care if it's "not the same thing" when twang seems to have a philosophy weaved into it which I don't really care for. The point is: Using terminology should be like using latin: Using words that directly describe and "define" themselves instead of making stuff up. Curbing? What the f* is curbing?

These are not pillar terms, I know, so don't flame me for them.

Getting less understanding and fewer tools to help you to understand is not a benefit to most people. It may be a benefit to to some that don't want to bother with learning the terminology, but most people are not like that.

I have no problem learning terminology when it helps me. "Getting less understanding and fewer tools to help you understand" is twisting my words. Simplification doesn't necessarily have to mean taking stuff out. It's just making it simpler.

Lastly, being intimidated or put-off by terminology you don't understand or have to study a little bit to understand, is not an issue with the product...

This I agree with. As I said, these are considerations made by a consumer who's deciding what to consume.

Robert Lunte wrote:

Dude, with all due respect, didn't you say you don't even own "Pillars"?  If you don't even own the thing, how can you pretend to "review" and make comment?  You and Owen go on to complain about how there are updates that you have to pay for...?

I think I said before, and I'll say it again: These are my considerations and conclusions I've drawn from reading reviews and comments on this great forum here. :) I don't own pillars yet, and I already stated why that is. Now, on to reading your response on the updates, maybe I'll be straightened out.

And if/when "another teacher" updates product... you better f****** believe its going to ask you to pay for it through your F****** nose and its going to be a HELL of a lot more then what I ask for... It pisses me off when you are getting complaints for things that are actually something you should be recognized for...

Dear jeopardy, what is straw man fallacy?

But wait, there is more misinformation in the above posts... so keep reading...
Anyone that has the digital download, can synchronize their copy of digital "Pillars" right now and get every incremental update.

This is news, since there's no mention of it in the shopping page (http://www.thevocaliststudiostore.com/T … _p_27.html). This definitely turns the tables for me. Just to be clear: What is an incremental update? :)

My digital download clients GET FREE INCREMENTAL UPDATES!  So your wrong on that point too...

Thank you for straightening that out. If I've understood incremental updates correctly then this will make a difference. Actually it makes all the difference, and it adds value to the deal. :)

Now then, from time to time, when I produce 20 more videos, improve the user interface, add training routines to the book... I sometimes ask for $40-$60 for major updates.

Ok, good. I was under the impression that all versions of the pillars cost money to update. Glad to hear this.

"The Four Pillars of Singing" has a 100%, 5-Star reviews on amazon.com and my own store at www.thevocaliststudiostore.com.  That is from real customers,... a perfect score! 

I know, I've read through a ton of them. Which is why I've been trying to decide between a couple of good choices, the pillars being one of them.

Again: I'm not trying to bash your product or your school. I think you're one of the best voices, and you have high quality videos from what I've seen.

I'm sorry if I came off as a misinformant, that wasn't my intention. I was under the belief (from information gathered in this forum and deducted from the online shop) that your main product is prone to updates that cost, and that's something I don't feel like dealing with. I'm glad you cleared it up, thanks. :)

Khassara, we're good... the issue that becomes very 'trying' for me is when I work very hard to create the best product in the business, and I think it probably is if you did a Ben Franklin on features, content, method and service... (... but Ill leave that up to customers to be the final judge of...), and then jump on a chain communication that talks about things that are not true about my product or misunderstandings. You guys have to understand that hundreds of people read this forum... so one misinformed comment like, "Rob doesn't give free updates" or "Rob teaches earlier bridging"... (Another idea that is totally wrong and seems to be a common misunderstanding about what Im doing...), it impacts my business. Apart from the fact that Im already facilitating a forum where other teacher's programs can be discussed and recommended.  I've done my part in regards to being 'fair' and 'open' and sharing my forum with other programs, etc... I can't possibly work any harder to make a better product for you guys... I can't possibly be more generous by offering this forum where you can talk about other teachers' products and do reviews, etc.... All I ask is that if your going to talk about "Pillars" that the information is accurate,,, if it isn't, then its just too much for me to deal with... A post that sits on my forum that I pay for, that is recommending other teacher's products... that then goes on to 'spout' notions about my product that are not true... is just too much for me to not intervene.

"incremental" updates means, updates that happen every day... typically smaller updates like 5 new pages in the book, or a new audio file, or adding one or two new videos... So in the course of 6 months... someone that purchased Pillars 3.0... if they are doing incremental updates with the synch software once a month are actually adding up... in the end, your probably getting enough content to merit asking for $60, but the way the product is set up today... people are getting updates.. until I change the password on the synch software.

When something big comes out or at least once or twice a year, Ill change the password which forces clients to contact me and get educated about the new updates.

Sorry if I got snarky, but Ron is right, these conversations are tricky, especially when information that is being shared is not accurate... I simply must intervene on issues like that.

You know, I always update my product because I keep growing as a coach and I put my new understandings and ideas in the product. There are also user interface issues... making the product easier and more intuitive to use is something I put time into... I get the sense that... other vocal programs just don't do that, certainly not like I do... It seems they make a product and then.... ?  How often do they bother to update?  Don't these teachers learn new things?  If the do, why don't they care to update their products?  These are questions that I think people should also consider... it speaks back to quality of service and the individuals sincere interest in helping people and work ethic.  This is a bit cynical, but I think the main reason is.. is because when people finish a product, they want to move on and be done with it. Product development is very time consuming and hard work... they may think, as long as its selling, there is no need to make any changes or updates... I just don't think that way.

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#23 2014-05-01 20:16:15

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Yes this statement:

Twang, to me, is more undescriptive than pharyngeal presence

"Pharyngeal presence is more descriptive then the term "twang"?

Neither one of the are perfect I suppose, but I don't feel that "pharyngeal presence is any less abstract then "twang".. but it doesn't matter...

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#24 2014-05-01 21:08:07

mcharis
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Registered: 2014-04-24
Posts: 24
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

I don;t have the program but I am seriously thinking to buy it and to take few lessons with Lunte.

the reasons for me are very simple, I had very hard time with previous teachers and programs that I have used and I even wrote at my huge thread my first day here, basically ranting about how teachers of the 20-50 bucks per hour don;t really explain the position, they have useless exercises that they hurt my voice etc...
Only one teacher that I did some lessons was the best so far was a Bel Canto teacher in NY, but I had to stop the lessons and she didn't had the chance to teach me more into depth about the anatomy of the voice.
Just from lurking here and googling the terminology that some might find it as a negative thing in Lunte's program and checking many things, I can say in a week my singing has been improved in those things: I can hit the very high notes more easy than before and they are "larger" and i know much better my own throat and how the voice works.
Before, the general statements " open throat" "cry" at the high notes to belt" and all that, it only hurts my voice and I was stopping the exercises.
I prefer to read "twang" and google it and see what the hell is twang, than do "nays" and be like "i don;t know what the (*auto edit*) im doing, that hurts."  or "whats the point of doing nays anyway?".

Now I can imagine if I do invest to the program and some lessons with Lunte, how quickly I will be able to reach the level im looking for and be able to continue professionally where I stop years ago from vocal abuse.

like I said, I cannot really "review" the program itself because I don't have it, but I can review this forum and the free tips and things Lunte and other people are talking here and they are above amazing and professional, for my humble opinion, because I can make sense of them and they work for my voice, I feel "safe" like I felt with my teacher in NY.

Last edited by mcharis (2014-05-01 21:09:34)

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#25 2014-05-01 21:13:43

Robert Lunte
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Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Owen:

I have to disagree with this statement.

-TVS is more of a head voice development, early bridging first then move it later, bring a strong head voice down to bridge with chest, kind of method. KTVA is more of a chest voice development, late bridging first then move it earlier, bring an open throat chest voice up to bridge with head, kind of method.


This is a tired old presumption about TVS that is really not true. Perhaps about 4 years ago, this may of had more validity, but those days are gone.  The Specialized Onsets, namely Dampen & Release, Attack & Release and Contract & Release onsets...  are all onsets and techniques designed to increase musculature for what people like to refer to as "Late Bridging"... which by the way has nothing to do with time and everything to do with musculature; when and how you engage it.

Further addressing this issue, the new vowel modification formulas in recent updates... offer formulas that teach you how to bridge in a lighter mass and in heavier mass with more resistance to build strength. I know that Ken advocates a lot of "Ah" vowel in his training. The latest update to "The Four Pillars of Singing" has my top 6, preferred vowel modification formulas, formulas that were inspired by Berton Coffin's book "Overtones of Bel Canto" and new vowel modifications that are consistent with my new acoustic modes; Curbing, Edge & Neutral. Lastly, there is a table of "Resistance Training Vowel Modification Formulas" that include vowel formulas from some of my teachers and an extensive selection of "Ah" oriented formulas... that essentially, is all the "Ah" vowel work anyone could ask for!

You see, one of the things Im doing with all these updates is... Im including elements and techniques regarding training that can be found in some other programs. CVI has vocal modes... TVS now has Acoustic Modes which is essentially the same thing, but with some variations. Ken offers a lot of discussion about "bridging late", that information is already in "Pillars" and the training techniques to learn it are already found in "Pillars" with the specialized onsets and new resistance training vowel modification formulas. Estill offers "vocal figures"... I offer Physical Modes, which are the Estillian modes + 2 more TVS Modes... the point is, there really isn't anything in any other product that you can't get in "The Four Pillars of Singing"... TFPOS has everything... all the good ideas... not just my ideas, but other ideas inspired by other programs and teachers... TFPOS has always been that way and thats why I am always updating...

Its a fair statement to say, that if you want to get the best of these three great products, the central concepts that some people may deem unique in KTVA and CVI... are mostly, give or take a few exceptions, already covered in "The Four Pillars of Singing"...  Thats one reason why my product is 6.6 GB of content... its huge... I just keep adding more ideas and more value for students...

You want to know the honest to God truth... and I don't mean any disrespect to Ken because I like the work he does... but here is whats been going on.... while Ken is making impressive "How to sing like" videos which are fun to watch... Im spending most of my time the last couple years in product development, expanding my offering, writing a book, improving on my ideas and Methodology... and then translating those ideas into the product that my customers get. After the sale, I still care. I have pride in what people are getting and I want to know they are actually learning how to train and sing. 

Putting time into YouTube videos is 100% about marketing and getting sales... thats important, but working on your product is 100% about ... improving your service and making sure that people that buy your product, after you have their money,  are happy with their purchase and actually know what to do with it.

Btw, my video on late vs early bridging:





ANYONE THAT HAS QUESTIONS ABOUT TVS OR "THE FOUR PILLARS OF SINGING"... FEEL FREE TO SEND ME A PERSONA EMAIL.

Here are some additional PDFs you guys can download to shed more light on whats going on at TVS and the product.

The Four Pillars of Singing - Table of Contents:
https://thevocaliststudio.box.com/share … ukqmu6.pdf

This will tell you a lot about whats in the book and concepts that are covered.

TVS Method:
https://thevocaliststudio.box.com/share … o6ewr1.pdf

Clarifies some of the principles that are unique to TVS Methodology.


Now I've got to go to work....

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#26 2014-05-01 21:13:49

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

The teacher should explain the "point" of any exercise. And you should definitely ask what the point is if you wanna learn.


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#27 2014-05-01 21:19:34

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

mcharis wrote:

I don;t have the program but I am seriously thinking to buy it and to take few lessons with Lunte.

the reasons for me are very simple, I had very hard time with previous teachers and programs that I have used and I even wrote at my huge thread my first day here, basically ranting about how teachers of the 20-50 bucks per hour don;t really explain the position, they have useless exercises that they hurt my voice etc...
Only one teacher that I did some lessons was the best so far was a Bel Canto teacher in NY, but I had to stop the lessons and she didn't had the chance to teach me more into depth about the anatomy of the voice.
Just from lurking here and googling the terminology that some might find it as a negative thing in Lunte's program and checking many things, I can say in a week my singing has been improved in those things: I can hit the very high notes more easy than before and they are "larger" and i know much better my own throat and how the voice works.
Before, the general statements " open throat" "cry" at the high notes to belt" and all that, it only hurts my voice and I was stopping the exercises.
I prefer to read "twang" and google it and see what the hell is twang, than do "nays" and be like "i don;t know what the (*auto edit*) im doing, that hurts."  or "whats the point of doing nays anyway?".

Now I can imagine if I do invest to the program and some lessons with Lunte, how quickly I will be able to reach the level im looking for and be able to continue professionally where I stop years ago from vocal abuse.

like I said, I cannot really "review" the program itself because I don't have it, but I can review this forum and the free tips and things Lunte and other people are talking here and they are above amazing and professional, for my humble opinion, because I can make sense of them and they work for my voice, I feel "safe" like I felt with my teacher in NY.

Thanks mcharis

Please check your personal email... I have a surprise there for you... its what we call "Customer Service" at TVS...

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#28 2014-05-01 21:23:49

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Danielformica wrote:

The teacher should explain the "point" of any exercise. And you should definitely ask what the point is if you wanna learn.

Right?  Thank you Dan... A teacher needs to follow up on what they say and do... they have to explain their content, techniques, method and ideas... The ability to explain these things in vocal technique effectively is not the art of singing... its the art of teaching... these are two different things... I have terminology and a developed Method... and a book and original techniques because I am a great TEACHER. I know how to explain this stuff and get results... that also means, I know how to produce a product that helps me to explain and get results. I really do care about people getting results after they purchase my product... Im not doing this to only make a living, or a fast buck... I do this because it is my purpose on this Earth to be a teacher of voice technique. I'm gifted at it and that is the work that I must do...

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#29 2014-05-01 21:26:39

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7197
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

khassera,

i used to not like that term either.....but now i see it better.....you're curbing the sound...it's singing with a restraint, sometimes they call it a cry.. but it makes for a rich, expressive tone.

when you want to sing plaintively, like for blues, or those "you did we wrong" type of tunes.....that's a great mode to use.

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#30 2014-05-01 21:27:49

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
Reputation :   

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Martin:

On pharyngeal & twang: I didn't know pharyngeal had nothing to do with the pharynx. When I've heard of pharyngeal presence spoken of and a demo, I understood it very quickly. With twang I had a tendency of overdoing it and choking the sound.

On curbing: Wow, had to google that one, and it actually does mean to restrain, or to "build a curb." Haha, what a funny way of putting it, hough. But it doesn't change it for me. Does make more sense though. Is it like mask then?

Robert Lunte wrote:

Khassara, we're good... the issue that becomes very 'trying' for me is when I work very hard to create the best product in the business, and I think it probably is if you did a Ben Franklin on features, content, method and service... (... but Ill leave that up to customers to be the final judge of...), and then jump on a chain communication that talks about things that are not true about my product or misunderstandings. You guys have to understand that hundreds of people read this forum... so one misinformed comment like, "Rob doesn't give free updates" or "Rob teaches earlier bridging"... (Another idea that is totally wrong and seems to be a common misunderstanding about what Im doing...), it impacts my business. Apart from the fact that Im already facilitating a forum where other teacher's programs can be discussed and recommended.  I've done my part in regards to being 'fair' and 'open' and sharing my forum with other programs, etc... I can't possibly work any harder to make a better product for you guys... I can't possibly be more generous by offering this forum where you can talk about other teachers' products and do reviews, etc.... All I ask is that if your going to talk about "Pillars" that the information is accurate,,, if it isn't, then its just too much for me to deal with... A post that sits on my forum that I pay for, that is recommending other teacher's products... that then goes on to 'spout' notions about my product that are not true... is just too much for me to not intervene.

Just the fact that you're here straightening things out is admirable.

"incremental" updates means, updates that happen every day... typically smaller updates like 5 new pages in the book, or a new audio file, or adding one or two new videos... So in the course of 6 months... someone that purchased Pillars 3.0... if they are doing incremental updates with the synch software once a month are actually adding up... in the end, your probably getting enough content to merit asking for $60, but the way the product is set up today... people are getting updates.. until I change the password on the synch software.

Sounds reasonable. And I've overreacted: it's not like any updates are going to turn the tide suddenly, so even if I'm not up to date for whatever reason it doesn't make the information obsolete. Again: i had a false impression of how frequent the updates were. I was wrong and that's that.

Sorry if I got snarky, but Ron is right, these conversations are tricky, especially when information that is being shared is not accurate... I simply must intervene on issues like that.

I know two esteemed forum owners on different topics/fields and both of them just censor and ban whoever's talking about any competition in a positive tone. So you really have no need to apologize, you're doing a much better job hosting than a lot of people are. :)

You know, I always update my product because I keep growing as a coach and I put my new understandings and ideas in the product. There are also user interface issues... making the product easier and more intuitive to use is something I put time into... I get the sense that... other vocal programs just don't do that, certainly not like I do... It seems they make a product and then.... ?  How often do they bother to update?  Don't these teachers learn new things?  If the do, why don't they care to update their products?  These are questions that I think people should also consider... it speaks back to quality of service and the individuals sincere interest in helping people and work ethic.  This is a bit cynical, but I think the main reason is.. is because when people finish a product, they want to move on and be done with it. Product development is very time consuming and hard work... they may think, as long as its selling, there is no need to make any changes or updates... I just don't think that way.

Well I look forward to trying your program out. :)


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#31 2014-05-01 21:38:49

mcharis
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-04-24
Posts: 24
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Thank you so much Lunte!
it is truly appreciated!

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#32 2014-05-01 22:45:35

David
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From: Canada
Registered: 2010-01-18
Posts: 217
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

:( Roberts or Ken's will produce the same end result.   If you have a class A student of Roberts and a class A student of Tamplin, and they both put everything they have into the program and complete it .. etc....
They will both be fantastic singers and will be able to do what ever they want vocally.

You have to look at the content, resources, coaches to see what method is more your life style..

Based on videos: 

Ken, is very effective but basic...He is more of a :  This is how you do this -- now copy me...  where as Robert, likes to explain why  and demonstrate the result. 

If you like explanations, fancy terminology, colourful presentations and learn how to use the tools of the trade (mic's etc).. then Robert is your man...

If you like straight to the point, simplistic terms, and copycat method instead of expressed reasoning methods, then Ken is your man... Either way -- you can't loose... They will both show you how to reach your true potential, safely and how to be the best you can be...

Who's junk is bigger then who's is pointless.... just go for what you like - the rest will come with practice....

SS and the bunch of programs like those, can't compare to the ones in question above... They are different animals, meant for different approaches.... But for the powerhouse ones, Robert's or Ken's win the battle.

Last edited by David (2014-05-01 22:48:46)


Cheers,

David.

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#33 2014-05-01 23:05:52

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

... I agree with your points, good post David... CVI is also good, but its only a book... I like to advise people to purchase my product and CVI's as they complement each other well and my product has all the training content so you can actually practice the ideas from both books / Methods.

"Who's junk is bigger then who's is pointless... "

I get your point David, but truthfully, I don't think it is pointless... my product has a lot of stuff in it yes... but that translates to more value, which comes from more features and tools that people can use to help them.

Adding a book to my product, can't be considered "junk". If they are good, books tend to be very effective in educating and work fantastic as a reference to whats going on. Books mean the author has really sat down and thought things through... has had to take the time to put their ideas into a cohesive order... out of this ordering and organizing that can only come from writing a book, emerges a Methodology... I think its pretty much impossible to develop a true "Methodology" if you don't write it down in a book. 

You can't develop a serious vocal "Methodology" with only videos, its just not the right medium for that. The strength in videos is they communicate well, they hit hard and fast and they are entertaining... but they don't retain, organize or archive information like a book does. Anyone that relies only on videos is not preserving their ideas for generations to come, at least not in a serious way. Books last forever and have legacy... videos turn to vapor, become obsolete and are deleted or lost...  Videos are about presentation and communicating clearly... Books are about going deeper, into the authors mind and ideas... and about truly documenting something that is important enough to write down.

But ya, like you said, my "stuff" is pretty serious... its for beginners and advanced students that want to really know whats going on, have the content and routines to train and want to really know what to do... Its not just a bunch of videos dumped into folders... and then its on you to figure out what the heck your suppose to do or how to start...

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#34 2014-05-02 00:13:00

David
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From: Canada
Registered: 2010-01-18
Posts: 217
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

great response...

btw : the "junk" term I used wasn't referencing the material as junk, it was a substitute for measuring ones private part to have higher status..


Cheers,

David.

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#35 2014-05-02 00:39:58

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

mcharis wrote:

I don;t have the program but I am seriously thinking to buy it and to take few lessons with Lunte.

the reasons for me are very simple, I had very hard time with previous teachers and programs that I have used and I even wrote at my huge thread my first day here, basically ranting about how teachers of the 20-50 bucks per hour don;t really explain the position, they have useless exercises that they hurt my voice etc...
Only one teacher that I did some lessons was the best so far was a Bel Canto teacher in NY, but I had to stop the lessons and she didn't had the chance to teach me more into depth about the anatomy of the voice.

What I have noticed in the 4 years I have been in this forum is that a number (I don't keep a running count) of students came from other systems to learn from Robert's 4 Pillars because he had something they were lacking from previous instruction. And I have yet to hear a 4 Pillars student sound like crap. So, something is going right.

Even students of other systems come to this forum. It is the largest and most unique of it's kind. I don't particularly fly the banner of any system but having some of 4 Pillars 2.0 and some of the earlier lingo spoke to me.

So, I am not sure why we have the traffic that we do here, though it might be the name, which would easily show up in a Google search.

I have perused other forums and in those, the members there stick fairly close to that system. Which is okay.

But I do know that I appreciate the generosity of Robert, Bob, and Adolph. It is still a free site to members, in spite of it's size. And, as far as I know, none of the other forums have a media site like this one does.

And all I have to do to enjoy my stay here is shut up once in a while and not drop a deuce on the carpet. :D


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#36 2014-05-02 03:04:14

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

David wrote:

great response...

btw : the "junk" term I used wasn't referencing the material as junk, it was a substitute for measuring ones private part to have higher status..

David, I didn't take it like that... its ok...

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#37 2014-05-02 03:07:55

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

ronws wrote:

mcharis wrote:

I don;t have the program but I am seriously thinking to buy it and to take few lessons with Lunte.

the reasons for me are very simple, I had very hard time with previous teachers and programs that I have used and I even wrote at my huge thread my first day here, basically ranting about how teachers of the 20-50 bucks per hour don;t really explain the position, they have useless exercises that they hurt my voice etc...
Only one teacher that I did some lessons was the best so far was a Bel Canto teacher in NY, but I had to stop the lessons and she didn't had the chance to teach me more into depth about the anatomy of the voice.

What I have noticed in the 4 years I have been in this forum is that a number (I don't keep a running count) of students came from other systems to learn from Robert's 4 Pillars because he had something they were lacking from previous instruction. And I have yet to hear a 4 Pillars student sound like crap. So, something is going right.

Even students of other systems come to this forum. It is the largest and most unique of it's kind. I don't particularly fly the banner of any system but having some of 4 Pillars 2.0 and some of the earlier lingo spoke to me.

So, I am not sure why we have the traffic that we do here, though it might be the name, which would easily show up in a Google search.

I have perused other forums and in those, the members there stick fairly close to that system. Which is okay.

But I do know that I appreciate the generosity of Robert, Bob, and Adolph. It is still a free site to members, in spite of it's size. And, as far as I know, none of the other forums have a media site like this one does.

And all I have to do to enjoy my stay here is shut up once in a while and not drop a deuce on the carpet. :D

Thanks Ron... I seem to be the, "... I tried that program or this program and didn't get anywhere"  Or "I tried that program or this program and took it as far as it can take me, I realized I need to get to the next level"...

I tend to hear this all the time. Many people don't come to me for the first time, probably because my marketing efforts are not noticed due to all the noise that some other coaches make... they have more money to spend on Google and paid advertising.  Brett Manning and Ken are two examples... Its hard to be seen when you have people spending thousands every month on paid advertising making lots of noise in front of you... so Im often the guy people go to after they have done about 1-3 other programs and didn't get anywhere or need to go to the next level... I also hear, "... I wish I had found you a lot earlier"... too often.

I spend more time working on my product and online systems then I do marketing it...

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#38 2014-05-02 11:45:01

joshual
TMV Forum Member
From: Toulouse, France
Registered: 2009-01-23
Posts: 426
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Website

Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

it's like in real life.... they are all teachers, all those programs are good, you have to try them all to find which one suits you better. nothing more...

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#39 2014-05-02 14:09:03

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Jushau, honestly... "all systems" are NOT good... some are just garbage.  However, "The Four Pillars of Singing", CVI and Ken's product are all good...  I'm just saying... :cool:

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#40 2014-05-02 14:31:07

Lobster510
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

I got the 4 pillars a few weeks ago and have had 2 lessons with rob since then.My voice has become more reliable and my head tones are getting there. Especially over this last week my headtones are starting to feel really good and sound much bigger. The product is fantastic but I would recommend lessons to get the most out of it as quickly as possible.

I found that "pharyngeal voice" got me more confused than anything because it describes the resonance rather than the laryngeal configuration whereas twang refers to getting your muscles to do the right thing which in turn results in more pharyngeal resonance.... if that makes sense...

Looking forward to our next lesson rob, could you give some thought on whether it would be better to do a 4th before or after your european tour. Pity you're not coming to France this time, I have alot of musician friends in toulouse ;)

Last edited by Lobster510 (2014-05-02 14:33:15)

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#41 2014-05-02 16:18:06

VIDEOHERE
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

On curbing: Wow, had to google that one, and it actually does mean to restrain, or to "build a curb." Haha, what a funny way of putting it, hough. But it doesn't change it for me. Does make more sense though. Is it like mask then?

khassera,

curbing is a vocal mode in cvt terminology...a sound coloring, a tonal acutrement.

the mask has nothing to do with curbing.  the mask is a placement or the focusing of the voice. you could use any mode with the mask.

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#42 2014-05-02 20:13:21

Robert Lunte
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Lobster510 wrote:

I got the 4 pillars a few weeks ago and have had 2 lessons with rob since then.My voice has become more reliable and my head tones are getting there. Especially over this last week my headtones are starting to feel really good and sound much bigger. The product is fantastic but I would recommend lessons to get the most out of it as quickly as possible.

I found that "pharyngeal voice" got me more confused than anything because it describes the resonance rather than the laryngeal configuration whereas twang refers to getting your muscles to do the right thing which in turn results in more pharyngeal resonance.... if that makes sense...

Looking forward to our next lesson rob, could you give some thought on whether it would be better to do a 4th before or after your european tour. Pity you're not coming to France this time, I have alot of musician friends in toulouse ;)

Thanks for your insights Lobster... yes, I'm looking forward to watching you have another great sesh... master those onsets!  Q&R, D&R, T&R onsets at the bottom and Q&R, D&R, T&R, and W&R onsets (approximately on notes above A4)... see you soon!

BTW, regarding Toulouse... I would LOVE to come back to Toulouse and do a Master Class, its been about four years since I was there. I had a great time. I partnered with TVS MCI, Maestro Stephanie DUMOUCH... do you know her?  In any case, lets have a discussion... send me a private email if you have any interest in discussing working together to do another TVS Master Class in Toulouse... would love to speak to you about it.


Here is a video that was made on Toulouse TV during that tour, its interesting and entertaining.

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#43 2014-05-02 20:15:28

Robert Lunte
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

VIDEOHERE wrote:

On curbing: Wow, had to google that one, and it actually does mean to restrain, or to "build a curb." Haha, what a funny way of putting it, hough. But it doesn't change it for me. Does make more sense though. Is it like mask then?

khassera,

curbing is a vocal mode in cvt terminology...a sound coloring, a tonal acutrement.

the mask has nothing to do with curbing.  the mask is a placement or the focusing of the voice. you could use any mode with the mask.

I like the term "curbing" a lot. I think it does a great job of describing whats going on and in an abstract way, the physical sensation. Its a term I liked enough to just keep it... in regards to the TVS version of Acoustic Modes... same term as CVI... will add vowel modification formulas that are specific for the TVS acoustic modes this weekend.. then there will be vowel training sequences set up to specifically build the configurations and muscle memory for some primary acoustic modes.

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#44 2014-05-03 20:59:34

Asim
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From: Long Island
Registered: 2011-07-26
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Phil Moufarrege wrote:

My recommendations are to find a method that you can both TRUST (a teacher that can demonstrate what they preach) and also RESONATE WITH (the way they explain things).  I know of many fantastic coaches that I didn't get good results with only because I couldn't resonate or interpret their instructions correctly.  This is very important, sending an email to the teacher/method  with some questions you have, will help you figure out which one resonates with you.  Then give that method SOLID DEVOTION without mixing or ignoring certain advice, do everything it says exclusively.

This is true. I've trained with Tamplin, Lunte, and other famous coaches, but I never correctly interpreted their instructions. I know that because if I had, I'd be a great singer by now, and I don't think I am.

As long as you don't misinterpret your coach you'll probably end up achieving the same result as you would with virtually any other good coach or program. I believe the difference is the speed and time at which you'll get there.

One reason why Tamplin loudly resonated with me is his elitism, especially his diatribes against Brett Manning. The truth is that you don't have to be anywhere near the best at what you do in order to make a living, so it's good for the pros to upbraid each other every now and then. We need to know who's worth our time and money and who's a limp dick.

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#45 2014-05-04 00:27:04

Robert Lunte
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Asim wrote:

Phil Moufarrege wrote:

My recommendations are to find a method that you can both TRUST (a teacher that can demonstrate what they preach) and also RESONATE WITH (the way they explain things).  I know of many fantastic coaches that I didn't get good results with only because I couldn't resonate or interpret their instructions correctly.  This is very important, sending an email to the teacher/method  with some questions you have, will help you figure out which one resonates with you.  Then give that method SOLID DEVOTION without mixing or ignoring certain advice, do everything it says exclusively.

This is true. I've trained with Tamplin, Lunte, and other famous coaches, but I never correctly interpreted their instructions. I know that because if I had, I'd be a great singer by now, and I don't think I am.

As long as you don't misinterpret your coach you'll probably end up achieving the same result as you would with virtually any other good coach or program. I believe the difference is the speed and time at which you'll get there.

One reason why Tamplin loudly resonated with me is his elitism, especially his diatribes against Brett Manning. The truth is that you don't have to be anywhere near the best at what you do in order to make a living, so it's good for the pros to upbraid each other every now and then. We need to know who's worth our time and money and who's a limp dick.

lol...

One thing I can assure you, I share Ken's sentiments in regards to the "sing like you speak" programs and the multitude of problems that are inherent in these programs... and I'll just leave it there for now...

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#46 2014-05-04 03:30:34

Owen Korzec
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

geran89 wrote:

Robert Lunte wrote:

I share Ken's sentiments in regards to the "sing like you speak" programs and the multitude of problems that are inherent in these programs...

i agree, it's better to learn to 'speak like you sing' instead :)

mhm. :cool:

Just had a lesson today and listened to the recording - after all the warming up I did beforehand, I was speaking so damn high without even thinking about it, it was crazy to hear. My voice was freely dancing all around the 3rd octave instead of being stuck in the upper half of the 2nd octave. And the tone was nice and bright, good closure but not pressed.

I recently came up with this new little mantra I think is totally true:

Speak like you sing, so that you can sing like you speak.

Of course it's an oversimplification but that's the general concept - your speaking technique needs to support your singing technique - holding the same placement, tonal characteristics, and efficiency of production, or else you will have to feel a great change when you go to sing and that adjustment will always feel difficult.

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#47 2014-05-04 05:07:40

Danielformica
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From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Asim wrote:

Phil Moufarrege wrote:

My recommendations are to find a method that you can both TRUST (a teacher that can demonstrate what they preach) and also RESONATE WITH (the way they explain things).  I know of many fantastic coaches that I didn't get good results with only because I couldn't resonate or interpret their instructions correctly.  This is very important, sending an email to the teacher/method  with some questions you have, will help you figure out which one resonates with you.  Then give that method SOLID DEVOTION without mixing or ignoring certain advice, do everything it says exclusively.

This is true. I've trained with Tamplin, Lunte, and other famous coaches, but I never correctly interpreted their instructions. I know that because if I had, I'd be a great singer by now, and I don't think I am.

As long as you don't misinterpret your coach you'll probably end up achieving the same result as you would with virtually any other good coach or program. I believe the difference is the speed and time at which you'll get there.

One reason why Tamplin loudly resonated with me is his elitism, especially his diatribes against Brett Manning. The truth is that you don't have to be anywhere near the best at what you do in order to make a living, so it's good for the pros to upbraid each other every now and then. We need to know who's worth our time and money and who's a limp dick.

Upbraiding teachers is classless.. You could look into any program, method, book, school and find the flaws because it's not individual teaching. Everyone is individual in their problems with singing. Teachers and and maestros included.
Though it would be fun to upbraid a teacher and call them out it's not cool. As there are techniques and sounds and SINGING that are not appealing to everyone's ear;)

Last edited by Danielformica (2014-05-04 05:08:14)


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#48 2014-05-04 06:22:35

Robert Lunte
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

geran89 wrote:

Robert Lunte wrote:

I share Ken's sentiments in regards to the "sing like you speak" programs and the multitude of problems that are inherent in these programs...

i agree, it's better to learn to 'speak like you sing' instead :)

Actually thats true.  If you can incorporate the merits of singing phonations into speech, your speaking will be healthier for sure, but the notion that you can sing with the same physical and acoustic configuration as when your speaking is just utter none sense... and has been the source of wasting a lot of time and money for many, many people...

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#49 2014-05-04 07:00:23

Danielformica
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From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

In regards to "speech level singing" it was only meant to mean the movement of the larynx. I am not a practioner of sls but I know from personal experience from just speaking/and learning from  Seth and some of his teachers.


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#50 2014-05-04 07:58:01

Danielformica
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From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
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Re: KTVA VS 4pillars VS CVI

Light weight or heavy weight it's up to you the term speech level singing has nothing to do with it. Sls is just the position of the larynx


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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