TMV Partners

You are not logged in.


Announcement

GO HERE: www.TheModernVocalistWorld.com

ATTENTION TMV WORLD FORUM MEMBERS! YOU NEED TO GO LOGIN AND/OR REGISTER AT THE NEW AND IMPROVED TMV WORLD FORUM SYSTEM.



CLICK THIS LINK TO GO TO THE NEW FORUM. WHEN YOU ARRIVE AT THE NEW FORUM, LOGIN OR REGISTER AND THEN CLICK ON "GETTING STARTED". ALL OF THE POSTS AND TOPICS HAVE BEEN MIGRATED OVER AND EXISTING MEMBERS WILL BE LINKED BACK TO ALL THEIR POSTS IN THE NEW SYSTEM AFTER YOU LOGIN.

www.TheModernVocalistWorld.com

IF YOU ARE A NEW VISITOR THAT JUST JOINED US, YOU ARE INVITED TO COME OVER TO OUR NEW FORUM SYSTEM. CLICK THIS LINK TO GO THERE AND REGISTER.

www.TheModernVocalistWorld.com

Adverts

#201 2014-12-06 20:44:35

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7197
Reputation :   66 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin H wrote:

@Daniel

I don't know the answer. I don't know of any sources that explain what happens at these "bridges" and why they are located at those specific areas. That's why I'm asking - it's that simple.

martin,
lol!!!
you get this treatment because you are perceived as having all of this scientific knowledge. so it feels to us like you're asking a question of us, to which you already know the answer.


are you saying then that you truly don't know the answer either?

Offline

 

2014-12-06 20:44:35

AdBot
Advertisements

#202 2014-12-06 21:38:43

MDEW
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 2866
Reputation :   32 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

VIDEOHERE wrote:

Martin H wrote:

@Daniel

I don't know the answer. I don't know of any sources that explain what happens at these "bridges" and why they are located at those specific areas. That's why I'm asking - it's that simple.

martin,
lol!!!
you get this treatment because you are perceived as having all of this scientific knowledge. so it feels to us like you're asking a question of us, to which you already know the answer.


are you saying then that you truly don't know the answer either?

And if you give an answer that you know fits it is disputed because there are many different things that come together to make the vocal process happen. If you take any one point others can take a different stance because the outcome can be be changed by Cord closure, Larynx position, Pharynx width, Tongue position, Cord thickness,Twang, Resonance shifting, Air volocity...........
    But why those points for the beginner? Because the BASIC length and width of the human vocal tract has a resonance weakness around that point where the Vocal Tube Turns at the Palate.

Last edited by MDEW (2014-12-06 21:42:38)


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

Offline

 

#203 2014-12-06 21:39:54

FelipeCarvalho
TMV Forum Member
From: Brasil
Registered: 2011-07-28
Posts: 2889
Reputation :   61 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

How so?

Offline

 

#204 2014-12-06 22:54:08

MDEW
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 2866
Reputation :   32 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

No one else has even given a theory, yet the passagio is a place of trouble, weak resonance. It is harder to keep the cords together at this point Unless the formants are changed through Vowel modification, intrinsic anchoring or Training to make muscles(or coordination) stronger.
  Sympathetic vibrations are felt at the place where the accoustic energy acts on the place of resonance. They call it CHEST voice because you feel the vibrations in your chest, They call it Pharyngeal voice because you feel the vibrations in the pharynx(those things you do to make the transition easier), they call it Head voice because you feel the vibrations in the head.
   The weak vibrations JUST happen to manifest at the very frequency area where you also feel resonance shift from the Top of the mouth cavity to the bottom of the nasal cavity.  I guess that is just a coincidence.  :/

  Yes, I absolutely can be wrong. But this theory is the one that resonates with me. :)


Edit: after Passing the weak spot and maintaining closure it becomes easy again.

Last edited by MDEW (2014-12-06 22:59:21)


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

Offline

 

#205 2014-12-07 00:35:42

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin H wrote:

m.i.r. wrote:

Martin....I think you are just screwing with everyone. I have read your post, i know that you know vocal science. Also from hearing your sample, you are certainly experienced in actual singing.

I'm not screwing with anyone. I'm just trying to have a question answered (regarding the "bridges" around C4, E4, Bb4 and C5), but apparently, that's not possible.

Well I am trying to wrap my head around what you are asking, and it reminds me of the diaphragm question i asked a while back ha ha. If i am getting what you are asking then i will try to answer. However, i dont think we have an exact perfect scientifical answer just yet. Since i believe that is what you are asking, as in what is the exact physical process that requires bridging.

Well as i said, i dont think we have the exact perfect observable answer yet. Though i believe we could go off of what we know of how the ct and ta lenghten and thicken the folds, or thin, and anywhere in between. So I would imagine that is whag causes the breaks. Just the point the body has to change configs to keep the tone and feeling of freedom we are aiming for in our mental thought. I also know not everybody has the same breaks you listed, which speaks to the uniqueness of the muscle pattern. For example myself, my breaks dont fall on exact pitches and i only have 3. Between d4 and d4sharp, between g#4 and a4, and between b4 and c5. So in my opinion, the breaks are a bi product of how and where the body "puts the finger down to shorten the rubber band".

So in my opinion its like a mathematical equation your brain is always solving for you. You have in your brain you only want this much breath pressure, this much fold closure, and this much muscle in the closure. So when you reach the limit of the mental equation your brain says, time to do something. Screams is a no because that violates the given formula, so the untrained singer will break into falsetto as a safety net the brain has. However, the trained singer has the options of other formulas in the brain.  So instead of falseto, the brain says use this formula of ct strength, less ta pull, then folds to this and only use this much mass and so on. There for that switch of the math formula of all the muscles and tendons working together equals a break when it switches from one to the other. And just like any complicated task that involves multiple muscles working together, practice makes smoother and stronger all in all better. I hope this is the question you have been pushing at.

Last edited by m.i.r. (2014-12-07 00:39:00)

Offline

 

#206 2014-12-07 00:40:37

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

And no i did forget about resonance area, larynx height, abduction, and so on. That is all just part of the math equation i was speaking about.

Offline

 

#207 2014-12-07 01:14:16

MDEW
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 2866
Reputation :   32 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

m.i.r. wrote:

Martin H wrote:

m.i.r. wrote:

Martin....I think you are just screwing with everyone. I have read your post, i know that you know vocal science. Also from hearing your sample, you are certainly experienced in actual singing.

I'm not screwing with anyone. I'm just trying to have a question answered (regarding the "bridges" around C4, E4, Bb4 and C5), but apparently, that's not possible.

Well I am trying to wrap my head around what you are asking, and it reminds me of the diaphragm question i asked a while back ha ha. If i am getting what you are asking then i will try to answer. However, i dont think we have an exact perfect scientifical answer just yet. Since i believe that is what you are asking, as in what is the exact physical process that requires bridging.

Well as i said, i dont think we have the exact perfect observable answer yet. Though i believe we could go off of what we know of how the ct and ta lenghten and thicken the folds, or thin, and anywhere in between. So I would imagine that is whag causes the breaks. Just the point the body has to change configs to keep the tone and feeling of freedom we are aiming for in our mental thought. I also know not everybody has the same breaks you listed, which speaks to the uniqueness of the muscle pattern. For example myself, my breaks dont fall on exact pitches and i only have 3. Between d4 and d4sharp, between g#4 and a4, and between b4 and c5. So in my opinion, the breaks are a bi product of how and where the body "puts the finger down to shorten the rubber band".

So in my opinion its like a mathematical equation your brain is always solving for you. You have in your brain you only want this much breath pressure, this much fold closure, and this much muscle in the closure. So when you reach the limit of the mental equation your brain says, time to do something. Screams is a no because that violates the given formula, so the untrained singer will break into falsetto as a safety net the brain has. However, the trained singer has the options of other formulas in the brain.  So instead of falseto, the brain says use this formula of ct strength, less ta pull, then folds to this and only use this much mass and so on. There for that switch of the math formula of all the muscles and tendons working together equals a break when it switches from one to the other. And just like any complicated task that involves multiple muscles working together, practice makes smoother and stronger all in all better. I hope this is the question you have been pushing at.

I do not see how this is more valid than my post. If it is a mental blockage then there would not be an above average Block at G4. It is caused by a physical decoupling or loss of accoustic energy(Glottal/subglottal pressures). Which is explained by my theory.

   I will also add that this explains the help of occluded phonations in transversing passaggio. The pressure does not suddenly drop from the Open air passage of the mouth at that particular resonance point.

Last edited by MDEW (2014-12-07 01:20:28)


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

Offline

 

#208 2014-12-07 01:22:11

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

I was not calling your theory invalid whatso ever good sir:)  I was just answering in my own way I suppose, in a way "I think" he was asking the question. I definitely see we are saying about the same thing.

Last edited by m.i.r. (2014-12-07 01:22:55)

Offline

 

#209 2014-12-07 01:37:40

MDEW
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 2866
Reputation :   32 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

:)   And I was not attacking you personally. This subject has come up before and other theories were not presented yet this one(My theory) was disregarded.


   Edit: I did not mean to imply that your theory is any less valid than mine either.

Last edited by MDEW (2014-12-07 03:19:59)


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

Offline

 

#210 2014-12-07 08:59:53

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

@MDEW and m.i.r

You seem to have two different views on the matter. One is based mostly on the coordination (physiology) of the laryngeal muscles and the other mostly on resonance.

In my opinion it's important to distinguish between what's a necessity and what's a preference when it comes to those "bridging-areas". To my knowledge, the only necessity in regards to something that resembles "bridging" is the shift between M1 <> M2 when it comes to reaching very high or very low notes. And even that shift doesn't have a narrow limited area.

My theory is, that the common definitions of "bridging" are based on preference and not on necessity. Hence, you can basically "bridge" wherever you like depending on the definition.

Last edited by Martin H (2014-12-07 09:06:07)

Offline

 

#211 2014-12-07 09:29:32

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin,

Thanks for being thought provoking .

Students don't have a preference for a challenging "bridge" experience  at approxaty e4, but it still exists. You can't just will away this bridge nor is it an illusion. It exists and it must be dealt with. If your a beginner and your a coach of students for training. Perhaps im still misunderstanding your lesson here?

I like the "one voice" spirit of your reply. But most people have bridging issues and they are real everyday objective reality.

Thought.

Offline

 

#212 2014-12-07 11:07:49

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin H wrote:

@MDEW and m.i.r

You seem to have two different views on the matter. One is based mostly on the coordination (physiology) of the laryngeal muscles and the other mostly on resonance.

In my opinion it's important to distinguish between what's a necessity and what's a preference when it comes to those "bridging-areas". To my knowledge, the only necessity in regards to something that resembles "bridging" is the shift between M1 <> M2 when it comes to reaching very high or very low notes. And even that shift doesn't have a narrow limited area.

My theory is, that the common definitions of "bridging" are based on preference and not on necessity. Hence, you can basically "bridge" wherever you like depending on the definition.

I understand what you are getting at now, however i will have to respectfully disagree. A way i view it, is kind of like the dead lifts body builders do when they get the bar over their head. There is a certain position of their body, legs, and arms that are required to hold the weight over their head without injury. Also a set routine that puts the body in the optimal position every movement to get the weight up there. Sure you could prob just throw the weight up there a couple times, but the possibility of error and injury is huge. I believe the voice is the same, there is just certain things that have to happen, unless you want to scream your ass off. I mean i used to have prob 5 breaks, now only 3 but i wouldnt even count those as breaks anymore, i just remember they used to be there and i can force them to stand out if i am making a point. However, i really dont feel i have any, only thing i ever really pay attention to is bflat4 going into c5. Since its mostly head, i just make sure I dont drag weight up that high, which is a bad habit of mine when people get me wound up. So i could really say i prob have one register now, but i do know for a fact the breaks used to be there. However, this goes to my point of practice makes perfect, of the multiple muscles working together to make the picture. No matter how one register and efficient someone can sing, the config and muscles are always changing and adjusting. Just like the slight of hand magician, I didnt see him pull the flowers from his pocket, but that doesnt mean he didnt, hes just that smooth and efficient.....i mean hell, when i first started, i could scream, sqeeze, and nearly shart myself, yet i couldnt push past an f4. So i know my muscles and body learned some new stuff.

Now with that said, maybe martin you do have a freak vocal track, or never picked up any bad habits. Maybe you think registers are not manditory because to you they truly are not, they never even excisted for you. You truly feel you have one register because your larynx just did what was right from the beginning, it was the greased machine from the start. Or maybe you are just right and we are all just wasting our time with the register business. However, until new evidence or research discovered we will have to respectfully agree to disagree. Even if new evidence is shown, someone would have to explain to me the experiences i had and countless others defeating these register(or at least trying to battle them ha ha).

Last edited by m.i.r. (2014-12-07 11:12:34)

Offline

 

#213 2014-12-07 12:53:16

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

m.i.r. wrote:

kind of like the dead lifts body builders do when they get the bar over their head.

Yeah, deadlifts aren't above the head. You're probably thinking about jerks or snatches.

I think I get what Martin's saying, but I think it's more to do with pedagogy than the actual practice of singing. Unless I'm mistaken.

Last edited by Khassera (2014-12-07 13:02:30)


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

Offline

 

#214 2014-12-07 13:20:54

FelipeCarvalho
TMV Forum Member
From: Brasil
Registered: 2011-07-28
Posts: 2889
Reputation :   61 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin that would restrict dynamic range, so its not just a preference, its part of learning how to control the instrument.

Offline

 

#215 2014-12-07 14:07:22

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

MDEW wrote:

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

If head resonates "above the palate", you would always need to be nasal in order to do it, which is not the case.

That is covered in this statement.    "You either Close off the nasal passage to extend the VOCAL TUBE to the front of the mouth OR direct the air Behind the soft palate to extend the tube into the nasal area.
  It has to do with the resonance associated with the length of tube. G4 is weak Because of NOT having a solid tube at that point. Switch formants Higher or Lower to adjust the Resonance."
 
          That is also why "TWANG" works you already have some of the frequencies in the sound that resonate in the sinus cavities.   I do not know the formulas.....Resonant strategies(dampening larynx/raising larynx, formant tuning....changes the resonance point moving it away from the that Back wall of the mouth(The weak spot).

      The science is there, I am just not a scientist to prove it.

f = [(2n-1)c]/4L


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

Offline

 

#216 2014-12-07 14:54:53

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Khassera wrote:

I think I get what Martin's saying, but I think it's more to do with pedagogy than the actual practice of singing. Unless I'm mistaken.

I think it is both. Both a pedagogical question but more importantly, a scientific question that still no one has answered.

And again, on this page, Martin is once again accused of knowing the answer and just playing cat and mouse. So, I set up in my mind both possibilities. One, he is not privy to the answer, regardless of his vast amount of knowledge, otherwise.

Secondly, he does know the answer and is waiting for others to prove or disprove it.

Since no one is interested in entertaining the first notion that he is asking a legit question with no desire to swat mercilessly at hapless mice and assume the second, that still does not relieve or absolve the necessity of answer the question that no one will or can answer.

That is, take the supposedly machiavellian Martin out of the equation.

Why those specific bridge points? Where is the scientific research? I think the hidden answer is that it is not there, which, until shown otherwise, logically proves Martin's point, that the bridging at these points is out of artistic desire, not physical necessity.

Most anyone here, even without a study system, can already get near C5. It may not be "full voice," however you want to define that. So, you what? change something to create a sound profile or auditory illusion of what you want. Notice I said "want." It is not necessary that you avoid falsetto in a high note but in many instances, it is desirable, which is an opinion, an artistic choice, that you not use falsetto.

And bridge could just be a word. Maybe it's tuning. Maybe tuning and a variance in use of air. And it was not Martin that came up with specific freqs these supposed bridge points are at. He was simply asking for proof of that and rather than someone else admit they were wrong, mistaken, or ill-advised in hastily making sweeping statements to garner some kind of "expert" cred, it is easier to dismiss Martin as having ulterior motives in asking the question.

And the question remains unanswered and I expect it will remain unanswered and Martin will continue to be misunderstood and targeted for absolutely everything but answering the simple question.

Which, so far, is proving his point. These are matters of opinion. And opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them and needs deoderant.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

Offline

 

#217 2014-12-07 16:30:16

MDEW
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 2866
Reputation :   32 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

The question has not been unanswered. A theory HAS been proposed. Yes, it may be wrong. The science has not been experimented with or written in a peer reviewed paper but a theory has been given. Why are these areas troublesome for some singers, Why these particular areas?
    The theory does not answer what to do to adjust for this loss of acoustic power or the drop in the bernoulli effect or how to reposition your vocal tract to lesson the effect. ONLY the reason it happens.
   Maybe it is unimportant as to WHY these particular notes are the switching point and learning to coordinate in a way that the problem is avoided is the important thing. But the Question was WHY these particular notes.
   Yes it true that adjustments can be made to move these switching points up and down and muscle strength or muscle memory can be achieved to overcome them. In the end it does not matter once you have achieved the adjustments needed and they become automatic.


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

Offline

 

#218 2014-12-07 16:38:29

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Robert Lunte wrote:

Students don't have a preference for a challenging "bridge" experience  at approximately e4, but it still exists.

I would just like to point out, that I do indeed acknowledge that there are certain areas in the voice that can be hard to navigate like for instance the passaggio.

Offline

 

#219 2014-12-07 16:48:05

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

Martin that would restrict dynamic range, so its not just a preference, its part of learning how to control the instrument.

Yes, some of the vowels have a restricted dynamic range and so does the the choice of vibratory mechanism. But those limitations still don't explain the specific areas proposed.

Offline

 

#220 2014-12-07 16:49:22

geno
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-10-30
Posts: 2059
Reputation :   53 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Ah, but the "Passagio" is a real thing!  That's why they invented the word!  The reason for specific Frequencies: if you remember reading the explanations provided by one of the experts here you'll recall that it is because of Speech Vowel Formants which are normally in fixed frequency ranges (which make vowels intelligible).  The Harmonics - based on the fundamental - cross these Formants at certain frequencies like "Ah" with E4 - which creates problems for the singer.

And Singing Teachers like Robert (and all my teachers) deal with with these issues all the time.  What they do is teach the singer how to move the formants around to alleviate the acoustical problems.  Or like Martin reminds us, you can keep the volume low enough to avoid the problem on certain vowels.  Some singers sing naturally lighter so they don't have issues.  Or they naturally move the formants around.  But a lot of singers have had to learn to deal with the Passagio.

Offline

 

#221 2014-12-07 17:00:09

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

@MDEW

You mention the loss of acoustic power. But that would highly depend on the vowel you choose. For instance, as I explained to Robert, if you sing the "EE" vowel from Eb4-G4 (passagio) none of the first five harmonics (H1-H5) will cross a formant - hence there will be no noteworthy loss in acoustic power due to formants.

Offline

 

#222 2014-12-07 17:15:13

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

geno wrote:

But a lot of singers have had to learn to deal with the Passagio.

Yes, depended on their preference of sound.

Offline

 

#223 2014-12-07 17:51:46

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin H wrote:

geno wrote:

But a lot of singers have had to learn to deal with the Passagio.

Yes, depended on their preference of sound.

I think I'm getting where your coming from. You can choose to throttle the acoustic overload to accommodate the. Vowel or you can modify and realign the formAnt. You then assert that this is based on preference of sound color.  Yes, I suppose... But who wants to sing with low acoustic overload all the time? It's an interestic academic question but is it practical?  Singers don't want to have to govern their mass to this level of detail. It would distract from the ability to express yourself and other things. On a practical level, again as the advocate for students, you are left with needing to teach vowel mods.

Offline

 

#224 2014-12-07 18:10:08

MDEW
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 2866
Reputation :   32 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin H wrote:

@MDEW

You mention the loss of acoustic power. But that would highly depend on the vowel you choose. For instance, as I explained to Robert, if you sing the "EE" vowel from Eb4-G4 (passagio) none of the first five harmonics (H1-H5) will cross a formant - hence there will be no noteworthy loss in acoustic power due to formants.

Yes there are choices. "EE" works Because the back of the tongue rises lengthening the tube from the vocal cords to the top of the mouth. Ah gets us in trouble and is harder Because the tongue is lowered and the the space at the top of the tongue and the hard palate is increased. The resonace area is compromised because of that bend and wider space at the back of the throat where those notes would naturally sit or resonate.
  I do admit that I can be wrong but the questions are still answered by my theory. Which is not mine and I cannot recall the book that gave me this Idea. But I believe it was Either Titze, Miller or Frissell.


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

Offline

 

#225 2014-12-07 18:12:44

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Robert Lunte wrote:

I think I'm getting where your coming from. You can choose to throttle the acoustic overload to accommodate the vowel or you can modify and realign the formant.

Yes, but that's not exclusively retained to the passagio area. You can do that anywhere in your range.

Offline

 

#226 2014-12-07 18:20:38

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

MDEW wrote:

Yes there are choices. "EE" works Because the back of the tongue rises lengthening the tube from the vocal cords to the top of the mouth.

The length of the vocal tract (tube) doesn't change with tongue position. You can alter the length by raising or lowering the larynx or by rounding or spreading the lips.

Offline

 

#227 2014-12-07 18:49:45

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin H wrote:

Robert Lunte wrote:

I think I'm getting where your coming from. You can choose to throttle the acoustic overload to accommodate the vowel or you can modify and realign the formant.

Yes, but that's not exclusively retained to the passagio area. You can do that anywhere in your range.

Agreed, but the issue is bridges is it not?  Martin's room of mirrors discussion... Lol.

Offline

 

#228 2014-12-07 18:59:22

geno
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-10-30
Posts: 2059
Reputation :   53 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin H wrote:

geno wrote:

But a lot of singers have had to learn to deal with the Passagio.

Yes, depended on their preference of sound.

Yes, or environmental influences - how you learned to sing (without instruction) - who and how you mimicked, etc.  I just know that before I started taking lessons I ran into the E4 road block.  I was put into the "bass" part of the choir even though my low range was shit.  Others, who seemed to get around the formant issue, or mimicked the "right" singers, or who generally sang a lot softer than me, were able to sit in the "tenor" section of the choir. 

So yeah "preference" of sound is definitely part of it.  I would submit that inexperience, lack of training, or lack of knowledge, is another factor for many (not all) singers.

Offline

 

#229 2014-12-07 19:19:04

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

ronws wrote:

Khassera wrote:

I think I get what Martin's saying, but I think it's more to do with pedagogy than the actual practice of singing. Unless I'm mistaken.

I think it is both. Both a pedagogical question but more importantly, a scientific question that still no one has answered.

And again, on this page, Martin is once again accused of knowing the answer and just playing cat and mouse. So, I set up in my mind both possibilities. One, he is not privy to the answer, regardless of his vast amount of knowledge, otherwise.

Secondly, he does know the answer and is waiting for others to prove or disprove it.

Since no one is interested in entertaining the first notion that he is asking a legit question with no desire to swat mercilessly at hapless mice and assume the second, that still does not relieve or absolve the necessity of answer the question that no one will or can answer.

That is, take the supposedly machiavellian Martin out of the equation.

Why those specific bridge points? Where is the scientific research? I think the hidden answer is that it is not there, which, until shown otherwise, logically proves Martin's point, that the bridging at these points is out of artistic desire, not physical necessity.

Most anyone here, even without a study system, can already get near C5. It may not be "full voice," however you want to define that. So, you what? change something to create a sound profile or auditory illusion of what you want. Notice I said "want." It is not necessary that you avoid falsetto in a high note but in many instances, it is desirable, which is an opinion, an artistic choice, that you not use falsetto.

And bridge could just be a word. Maybe it's tuning. Maybe tuning and a variance in use of air. And it was not Martin that came up with specific freqs these supposed bridge points are at. He was simply asking for proof of that and rather than someone else admit they were wrong, mistaken, or ill-advised in hastily making sweeping statements to garner some kind of "expert" cred, it is easier to dismiss Martin as having ulterior motives in asking the question.

And the question remains unanswered and I expect it will remain unanswered and Martin will continue to be misunderstood and targeted for absolutely everything but answering the simple question.

Which, so far, is proving his point. These are matters of opinion. And opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them and needs deoderant.

I have not attacked martin once on this thread. Attempted with my best attempt to answer the question i think he is asking. I thought i have answered it, but i must be that st st stupid to not get it.

Yeah i might have said one thing about him knowing the Answer playing patticake with us. However, when he said he was genuinely looking for an answer i tried my best to provide th th th the answer.

Also if me saying he might have a freak vocal track is considered an attack, it isnt. It is a possibility i considered, and if i had one that just "worked" then hell i would have taken it with arms wide open.


Khassera.....yeah thanks you are right, it isnt dead lifts, i had a brain fart last night. Anyways this thread is giving me a headache.

Offline

 

#230 2014-12-07 19:29:00

FelipeCarvalho
TMV Forum Member
From: Brasil
Registered: 2011-07-28
Posts: 2889
Reputation :   61 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin H wrote:

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

Martin that would restrict dynamic range, so its not just a preference, its part of learning how to control the instrument.

Yes, some of the vowels have a restricted dynamic range and so does the the choice of vibratory mechanism. But those limitations still don't explain the specific areas proposed.

If we recall that quality is directly related to closed quotient, and that instead of keeping the same intensity we may want to keep the same level of closure, then changes will happen along the scale, intensity will have to elevate.

Since closed quotient is a quite objective "value", its my educated guess that as you ascend in pitch while keeping the same intensity, some changes are bound to happen when coming from a certain level of closure on the low range. Where those changes will happen will of course depend on how you handle it, and which quality you are using from begining to end.

I believe the idea of fixed bridges has been shown to be wrong already, since it was based on the idea that the different qualities were a result of CT vs TA ballance (and you can still find sources that postulate this, like the ncvs site for example).

Still I dont see anything wrong on using that organization for training if the results match what is expected and the teacher knows how to correct what is going on. The prior statement made from Dan, that bridges were not a matter of making changes, but adequating resonance and allowing it to happen, to me seems consistant with keeping a steady intensity while not allowing the vibratory register to change.

It does not matter if the bridges are fixed or not, and in my opinion he is kinda obligated to teach in the manner he learned, since thats what his students will probably want, not his own theories about what he does. At least I do the same.

Offline

 

#231 2014-12-07 21:24:33

MDEW
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 2866
Reputation :   32 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin H wrote:

MDEW wrote:

Yes there are choices. "EE" works Because the back of the tongue rises lengthening the tube from the vocal cords to the top of the mouth.

The length of the vocal tract (tube) doesn't change with tongue position. You can alter the length by raising or lowering the larynx or by rounding or spreading the lips.

I get that no one is understanding what I am proposing. I was not meaning the total length of the tube. ONLY the length from vocal folds to TOP of the back of the tongue.
  Sundberg has shown that Vowels are made  by two areas of a tube being squeezed at a certain fixed distance apart relevant to the tube length and size. What if at the very area of the tube that needed to be  squeezed for a particular vowel or note relative to the size of the tube there was a bubble or there was something that prevented that particular spot to be squeezed?
   I also understand that the actual reason that there is an acoustical decoupling or loss of acoustic power is irrelevent when you have ways to get around it. And maybe that was your point. But that was not the question.
The question was WHY those particular areas.


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

Offline

 

#232 2014-12-08 10:27:25

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

I had replied to this yesterday, Sunday but I said the wrong thing in another thread and so everything I responded does not show any of my posts from yesterday..

Oh well, good thing my opinion doesn't matter.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

Offline

 

#233 2014-12-08 10:47:24

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

I wondered why your posts vanished.

Offline

 

#234 2014-12-08 19:21:37

Adolph Namlik
Executive Director, The Modern Vocalist World
From: "No Name", New York
Registered: 2008-11-15
Posts: 748
Reputation :   17 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

ronws wrote:

I had replied to this yesterday, Sunday but I said the wrong thing in another thread and so everything I responded does not show any of my posts from yesterday..

Oh well, good thing my opinion doesn't matter.

ronws,

Oh no.... Don't think your opinion doesn't matter or you have said the wrong thing !!! For the past SEVERAL weeks, Robert and I have been testing the new system that is coming soon, and in the process, some of the posts have been disappearing. It's been a long and trying experience and sometimes the posts just vanish. Even some of MINE !

There is so much involved in this transition.....

Everyone please be patient !!!

Adolph


Adolph C. Namlik
Executive Director ~ The Modern Vocalist World
Western N.Y.
adolph@themodernvocalist.com
http://www.themodernvocalist.com/profile/AdolphNamlik
Email : chief188@hughes.net
716~257~9606
"My Life's A Stage"

Offline

 

#235 2014-12-08 19:42:34

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

MDEW wrote:

Sundberg has shown that Vowels are made  by two areas of a tube being squeezed at a certain fixed distance apart relevant to the tube length and size. What if at the very area of the tube that needed to be  squeezed for a particular vowel or note relative to the size of the tube there was a bubble or there was something that prevented that particular spot to be squeezed?

I don't think that the position of the formants have much to do with the various "bridges" proposed. However, the squeezing/narrowing point is very important. The size of the opening at that point is directly related to the amount of impedance and hence the acoustic overload principle.

Offline

 

#236 2014-12-08 19:48:03

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Hey, lets make something perfectly clear...  nobody deleted your posts Ron.. and Im not about to take heat for that. Why would we delete your post? 

Chief, your response makes it sound as if we or the system may of deleted Ron's posts and we did not. There are no posts being deleted... and if/when there ever might be, it certainly wouldn't be Ron...

Only under extreme circumstances when we have spam bots, someone that is blatantly belligerent and rude, or someone who is using the forum as a place to grind their axe because they knowingly want to make their personal "beef" a public spectacle, will we consider deleting a post. In regards to conflict with anyone of the fellow members, including me, chose to communicate privately offline. This is obvious to everyone who is mature and not petty and vindictive.

Offline

 

#237 2014-12-08 21:07:13

MDEW
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 2866
Reputation :   32 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin H wrote:

MDEW wrote:

Sundberg has shown that Vowels are made  by two areas of a tube being squeezed at a certain fixed distance apart relevant to the tube length and size. What if at the very area of the tube that needed to be  squeezed for a particular vowel or note relative to the size of the tube there was a bubble or there was something that prevented that particular spot to be squeezed?

I don't think that the position of the formants have much to do with the various "bridges" proposed. However, the squeezing/narrowing point is very important. The size of the opening at that point is directly related to the amount of impedance and hence the acoustic overload principle.

Thanks for even taking me serious.  I know what my thought process is but cannot express it. Maybe that is also the reason it was not proposed in a paper by Frissell or whoever I got the idea from. Maybe they also realized that it does not matter because there are adjustments that can avoid or lessen the effect.
    For myself there is a definate note that gives me trouble, G4. Why those particular notes end up being trouble spots can only be because the Average proportions of the vocal fold length to vocal tube length and width has a weak resonance area at those frequencies. The fact that the vocal tube Bends at the back of the togue and the palate seems to make sense to me(the area where that note would normally resonate). The things singers do to get past this area are generally things that would change where the note resonates "bring the note forward","resonate in the Mask", "Lower the larynx", "raise the Larynx", "Cover the note", "Modify the Vowel".........


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

Offline

 

#238 2014-12-09 01:31:04

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Hey Robert, Adolph - sorry about sounding whiny there. I thought I had offended someone and a post was being deleted and it was a software glitch that deletes all of a user's posts in a time period. Anyway, I saw that Killer Ku had a the same problem in other threads and realized it was NOT all about me. Ah, my gigantic, enormous ego ...

Pride goeth before a fall, every time. All is good.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

Offline

 

#239 2014-12-10 11:15:48

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

MDEW wrote:

For myself there is a definate note that gives me trouble, G4. Why those particular notes end up being trouble spots can only be because the Average proportions of the vocal fold length to vocal tube length and width has a weak resonance area at those frequencies.

I don't think it's because there are a weak resonance areas. It's more likely because of lack of correct training.

Offline

 

#240 2014-12-10 12:39:40

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Also, the "AH" has been mentioned several times. You don't have to modify that vowel either if you stay within the volume limit of that vowel:

https://app.box.com/s/u0yes31jb6ife6qw2o2o
(D4-A4)

Last edited by Martin H (2014-12-10 12:43:04)

Offline

 

#241 2014-12-10 12:40:35

FelipeCarvalho
TMV Forum Member
From: Brasil
Registered: 2011-07-28
Posts: 2889
Reputation :   61 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin, I would like to know your opinion on what I said, what about the changes of quality.

If you begin in the low range with a certain amount of closure, on a given coordination, as you ascend in pitch and want to keep the same quality/closure, the intensity would need to increase too.

Isnt that the reason why the restrictions of vowels start to appear on the higher area of the voice if we want to keep a given quality? The need of higher intensity to keep within a given "mode"?

Offline

 

#242 2014-12-10 12:50:50

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

@Felipe

You are completely right. If you use the same coordination from the beginning to the end the intensity will increase with pitch (due to increasing vocal fold tension). And that will limit many of the vowels the higher you get if you don't ease on the adduction.

Offline

 

#243 2014-12-10 12:56:08

FelipeCarvalho
TMV Forum Member
From: Brasil
Registered: 2011-07-28
Posts: 2889
Reputation :   61 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Ok.

Well, Consider this situation, instead of thinking of pitch vs intensity, lets think pitch vs closure.

Now lets say I began on AH, middle intensity on a C3, I have two choices.

1 - I change the level of closure as I go higher.
2 - I change the vowel as I go higher.

Now lets say that I want to get away with my AH as long as possible, isnt it a nice idea to try to sustain closure and AH and see up to which point its comfortable? This would be individual I presume.

What would you call that point?

Last edited by FelipeCarvalho (2014-12-10 12:58:10)

Offline

 

#244 2014-12-10 13:04:07

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

@Felipe

Well as you said yourself, it highly depends on the individual. But this is the "AH".

If you used the "EH" or "OH" you'll barely have any limitations in regards to intensity.

Also, I would like to point out, that we don't often use a "siren" in a song. We rarely start on a lower "AH" and then end on a higher note on "AH", going through all the notes in the passaggio. So ex. The gradual modifying that people mention is kind of an "artifact".

For instance, lets take "Hey Jude" in C:

Hey Jude...
G4   E4

This is crossing the passaggio,  there're 3 vowels, how do you modify? If any?

Last edited by Martin H (2014-12-10 13:30:16)

Offline

 

#245 2014-12-10 13:29:28

FelipeCarvalho
TMV Forum Member
From: Brasil
Registered: 2011-07-28
Posts: 2889
Reputation :   61 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Well in my opinion is a different form of organization.

If I want to train people to have something that sounds like AH, and has dynamic range. Sounds like EE and has dynamic range. Sounds like OO and has dynamic range.

And, also things that sounds like EH and OH, but is still consistant with the quality of the other problem vowels, then I surely can see the reason why marking up to which point the singer can have dynamic freedom without tampering much with the vowels could be useful.

There are other aspects like legatto line and homogeneity which are rather important from the point of view of the expected sound quality, which is not really optional and will need to happen someway.


As I said, I organize it in other manner, but as long as people dont try to go against the physical limits or fight them, I dont see any problems on using a structure that is well, artificial AND works.

Its a sound ideal, remember however that when singing on a given language, the language rules are important and we cant simply sing everything with OH in order to have dynamic freedom. You still need to make the words sound properly.


I cant start writing oll loko thos ond say its a "letter ideal". ;)

Offline

 

#246 2014-12-10 13:37:23

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

@Felipe

I definitely agree with you. To keep the "integrity" of the vowel at a certain intensity we will most likely have to modify.

But I don't see a direct connection with that notion and the specific "bridging" areas mentioned. And why modifications have to happen in those certain places.

Last edited by Martin H (2014-12-10 13:49:07)

Offline

 

#247 2014-12-10 15:56:43

FelipeCarvalho
TMV Forum Member
From: Brasil
Registered: 2011-07-28
Posts: 2889
Reputation :   61 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

hehe Martin but now you are word salading me a bit. You are placing focus on changes of vowels, I am saying that there are two possible changes in that condition, vowels, or quality.

I dont think there is a way to dispute that if you take ANY vowel, begin low in the range at a middle intensity (talking loud), and dont increase intensity as you increase pitch, changes of quality will happen.

Where I dont know. my guess is that it will be individual, but I dont think anyone would dispute that either.

Last edited by FelipeCarvalho (2014-12-10 15:57:27)

Offline

 

#248 2014-12-10 16:11:05

MDEW
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 2866
Reputation :   32 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

I think the key words in Martins posts have been "Those specific Bridge areas".  They are a generalisation. "Basses bridge here" "Baritones Bridge here"......... And they can change at different intensities and vowels, so how any given note be a stedfast bridging point. They cannot.


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

Offline

 

#249 2014-12-10 16:35:50

FelipeCarvalho
TMV Forum Member
From: Brasil
Registered: 2011-07-28
Posts: 2889
Reputation :   61 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Well the question began about "areas" of the voice where a change needs to happen.

And as I said, if we think about pitch, CLOSURE, and use of ALL vowels, then a change will happen as you ascend in pitch. At least when starting from a note with a bit more of intensity on the low range.

Last edited by FelipeCarvalho (2014-12-10 16:38:39)

Offline

 

#250 2014-12-11 08:18:14

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

@Felipe

Sorry, I didn't mean to make a salad out of your words. :lol:

I agree, a change has to happen in adduction as you ascend if you start on a relatively high intensity and you don't want to end up screaming.

Last edited by Martin H (2014-12-11 08:21:59)

Offline

 
OTHER TMV WEB SITES: TMV RECOMMENDS: TMV RECOMMENDS: TMV RECOMMENDS:

Adverts

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB
Hosted by PunBB-Hosting