TMV Partners

You are not logged in.


Announcement

GO HERE: www.TheModernVocalistWorld.com

ATTENTION TMV WORLD FORUM MEMBERS! YOU NEED TO GO LOGIN AND/OR REGISTER AT THE NEW AND IMPROVED TMV WORLD FORUM SYSTEM.



CLICK THIS LINK TO GO TO THE NEW FORUM. WHEN YOU ARRIVE AT THE NEW FORUM, LOGIN OR REGISTER AND THEN CLICK ON "GETTING STARTED". ALL OF THE POSTS AND TOPICS HAVE BEEN MIGRATED OVER AND EXISTING MEMBERS WILL BE LINKED BACK TO ALL THEIR POSTS IN THE NEW SYSTEM AFTER YOU LOGIN.

www.TheModernVocalistWorld.com

IF YOU ARE A NEW VISITOR THAT JUST JOINED US, YOU ARE INVITED TO COME OVER TO OUR NEW FORUM SYSTEM. CLICK THIS LINK TO GO THERE AND REGISTER.

www.TheModernVocalistWorld.com

Adverts

#51 2014-11-30 22:39:42

Clevertrevor76
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-28
Posts: 11
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

And to add to what Daniel is saying, the secrets are in the basics and how much time you put into them. The basics are simple but they are not easy. The truth is you don't need hundreds of intervallic patterns and scales. You can grow your voice through just using simple arpeggios as long as you are applying the correct principals.

Offline

 

2014-11-30 22:39:42

AdBot
Advertisements

#52 2014-11-30 23:05:01

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Danielformica wrote:

The thing is singing is all basics. You don't learn some basics and then some advanced exercises. You learn the principles and basics then get more skilled at range,vibrato, agility, pitch, etc.  it's not like there is a whole new set of exercises,  it's just expanding them. So if you are thinking you are gonna get more exercises and vocal "secrets" you are in for a very expensive "lesson learned".

The basics can seem advanced though if you previously trained with a teacher that taught incorrectly, or admired singers who sang wrong and tried to imitate, or incorrectly tried to imitate skilled singers etc etc. I know myself I had to untrain many bad habits that came from many sources. But if you go back to my first ever singing performance my voice was a lot less tampered with and would have been a lot simpler to train if I was able to find a good coach back then. Instead I found poor coaching and attempted self teaching and lost range which I had to gain back later with a good coach and then I got stuck and needed to find a new teacher to gain even more than I started with. Speaking about my true full voice which is always both the foundation and the result, for most singing. There's no need to "restart" how you train the voice unless it has previously been restarted the wrong way via environment, previous coaching, etc. which is common but some seemingly "gifted" singers don't fall for it the wrong way and that explains how they are.

Its all basics but you need the right basics.

You can't be a "head voice singer" and then turn into a "chesty belter" just by adding some kind of fancy advanced musculature. You can try all you want, but unless you are willing to leave the head voice sensation, you will never get there. You need a new foundation but its primitive, we all have it. if you call out to someone as if you never had training, not a yell but an excited call of joy, theres the start of belting voice. Then you work the voice from the opposite direction a head voice singer would - for belting you find the beast, then tame that beast - strip away the constriction with some new basic principles that take out the tension and thus the range ceiling. I am still working on this (though im no longer stuck and I can feel it improving properly) but I sure as hell would have taken twice or three times as long had I tried to turn a disconnected head tone into chesty belt by just trying to add musculature to a weak foundation.

Theres also the problem of trying to bridge a constricted yell into the head voice or even getting it to mix - it will never happen without deconstricting the yell. But so many people seem to be too afraid to go there and then miss the benefit of the shifting to head resonance inside the full call register, before having to even shed any weight. Especially because head resonance will do so naturally if the foundation is free if constriction and then bridging becomes a thing of the past, only "bridges" - little resonant shifts you cross where you make a couple basic adjustments and that's it. Not have to change 10 things.

Last edited by Owen Korzec (2014-11-30 23:17:29)

Offline

 

#53 2014-11-30 23:27:44

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

The basics are simple if you do not go beyond your skill level..

Last edited by Danielformica (2014-11-30 23:29:30)


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

Offline

 

#54 2014-12-01 03:20:02

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

What Owen is referring to is "Call Register" techniques or approach to building the musculature for higher singing, or belting.

Owen, TVS is teaching call register and the techniques for it, one voice, pulling from the bottom up... with proper formant / vowel tuning. Its basically an Attach & Release Onset, with the M1 / Call musculature... I hope you recognize that.  It is in fact, what an A&R should be, if it is "best practice"... if you do an A&R Onset, this is the way it should be done... and all the "vinnie pizzeria" ideas, etc.... it is all part of a TVS training experience, provided that the student is ready for it. The end result is the same objective as what KTVA is shooting for. Although this is not exactly how KEN sings, it is more or less what he is driving towards with his pedagogy. In TVS, if you want to learn to belt like that, I'll show you how and its in the product... I agree, it is very important to learn and solves a lot of challenges for singers.

But getting back to Daniel's point about basics,... I would include to the list of "Basics"...

Giving your students homework. Basics includes giving students content they can use to train. Giving voice lessons and not leaving your student with any homework or content to practice with is a problem for students. Basics includes giving your students training routines, or teaching them how to train, HOW to practice... Basics includes providing your students with facilities that enable them to access recorded files of their lessons, warm up routines and content in an easy way (an online, virtual HUB) so they can train and practice. There are the basics of how the singing voice works, but lets add to that, good teaching practices that successfully get those basics communicated and retained.

A comment about Daniel, apart from being a great singer and a good teacher. He has a sincere empathy for his students and friends... a thoughtful and talented individual.

Offline

 

#55 2014-12-01 03:30:03

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Clevertrevor76 wrote:

And to add to what Daniel is saying, the secrets are in the basics and how much time you put into them. The basics are simple but they are not easy. The truth is you don't need hundreds of intervallic patterns and scales. You can grow your voice through just using simple arpeggios as long as you are applying the correct principals.

Clever, there are no "secrets"... these things are known and are well known in many books and good coaches. I will agree that they are also not easy...  It is possible to train the voice with some simple arpeggios, maybe... but I pity the person that would only have that to work with and doesn't have more tools and luxuries designed to help hasten progress and understanding.

You can walk into a gym and do "the basics"... put some weights on a barbell and start moving the weight up and down... great, that will work... or you can invest in P-90x and get on a program that channels your energy and motivation into a more efficient and purposeful set of routines and get more understanding of what your doing, with more progress, sooner.

Offline

 

#56 2014-12-01 04:00:10

Clevertrevor76
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-28
Posts: 11
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Robert Lunte wrote:

Clevertrevor76 wrote:

And to add to what Daniel is saying, the secrets are in the basics and how much time you put into them. The basics are simple but they are not easy. The truth is you don't need hundreds of intervallic patterns and scales. You can grow your voice through just using simple arpeggios as long as you are applying the correct principals.

Clever, there are no "secrets"... these things are known and are well known in many books and good coaches. I will agree that they are also not easy...  It is possible to train the voice with some simple arpeggios, maybe... but I pity the person that would only have that to work with and doesn't have more tools and luxuries designed to help hasten progress and understanding.

You can walk into a gym and do "the basics"... put some weights on a barbell and start moving the weight up and down... great, that will work... or you can invest in P-90x and get on a program that channels your energy and motivation into a more efficient and purposeful set of routines and get more understanding of what your doing, with more progress, sooner.

Agree completely. That's kind of what I was getting at regarding 'the secrets'. Good vocal coaches may know about vowel mods, twang, correct support, how to get through consonants Etc but local teachers around here certainly don't, let alone be able to explain the concepts. Contemporary to them means jazz and theatre. Agree with the p90x analogy as well. A student needs  an efficient  and progressive program to get them where they want to go.

Offline

 

#57 2014-12-01 04:15:04

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

There isn't one accomplished student or member on this forum... someone like Owen, that didn't benefit greatly from vocal training programs.  It is a blessing that people have access to programs like this... not too long ago, that wasn't the case.

Offline

 

#58 2014-12-01 05:00:29

Clevertrevor76
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-28
Posts: 11
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

I have to say, at the start of this year I would not have believed you but the KTVA method has worked wonders for me personally. I can't make a comparison to your particular method as I don't own it but have great things about your program anyway. It's just Ken's explanations clicked with me, as did his methodology and let's face it ... The reason I bought it was His marketing to the hard rocking belting genre of singers that I was inspired by. These courses (the good ones) can save people 100's of dollars and sometimes years in private lessons. It sure did me... But as I said the course clicked with me. I'm a musician by trade and therefore had the ears for it. I realise not everyone can accurately interpret pitch and timbre... I could and I had access to my small studio where I could record the exercises over and over until I got the Ping/twang/timbre right. Not to mention the critiques of more experienced singers and moderators in the forums.

From what I've read there is a lot if misinformation regarding Kens method. It's almost like they have only seen the marketing and haven't got the actual course.

Last edited by Clevertrevor76 (2014-12-01 05:10:24)

Offline

 

#59 2014-12-01 05:09:20

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Robert Lunte wrote:

Owen, TVS is teaching call register and the techniques for it, one voice, pulling from the bottom up... with proper formant / vowel tuning. Its basically an Attach & Release Onset, with the M1 / Call musculature... I hope you recognize that.  It is in fact, what an A&R should be, if it is "best practice"... if you do an A&R Onset, this is the way it should be done... and all the "vinnie pizzeria" ideas, etc.... it is all part of a TVS training experience, provided that the student is ready for it.

There's not much to be ready for though. I am concerned about vocal teachers waiting too long to teach this or not fully understanding what it is.

You (by you I mean everyone) can't train high M2 beefier and beefier until it eventually becomes high M1. You need to practice stretching M1 up as high as you can without constricting, and bridge into M2 as high as possible. They is not much need to prepare to be "ready" for this. One thing I was taught is to practice this concept in a falsettoey intensity so you are at least not battling with the weight of the full call register, but you are training the idea of delaying the release to M2 as high/late as possible. It will still be an early bridge but the idea is to bridge as late as you can for that intensity. Then once you have that, you can add compression so that you can approach this idea with a mixed voice kind of sound which will bridge a couple steps higher, and then later on get into the true strengthening of the fullest heaviest part of the voice - but the point is, you work on the bridging late idea from the beginning. And it IS bridging late, or let's call it bridging high - the M1 is gradually releasing, but not giving into the M2 mechanism until a high point. It's NOT bridging with more musculature. Because the musculature is there to begin with if you approach it from a supported call sensation - this intention of staying in your natural speaking/shouting voice as high as you can.

Mind you, the resonant shifts are another form of "bridges". Those don't really move. You shift resonance at the F4 (then again at the Bb4, etc.), but the call voice gets sent through it - staying in M1 up to the A4-C5 for men (eventually - this can and should be learned in less than a year). The resonance shift is what gives it the release valve to continue carrying through with the full M1 musculature. The musculature was never changed or added on or anything fancy like that - only maintained and stretched higher like stretching any other muscle.

You cannot bridge early (surrender to M2 at a very "lazy" point) and then try to add back power to that foundation, without forcing your voice into an extremely unnatural coordination that many people will dislike hearing. Period, end of story. The mere idea of growing the head voice, tends to trick students, sometimes even vocal teachers themselves, into that problem and then they sound both strained AND weak in the high range. Terrible combination that no one wants.

The balance of power and finesse that most audiences expect to hear in contemporary singers, lives almost entirely inside M1 for every singer (this is not to discredit the wonder M2 singers out there - but that is a "unique" thing). You'd think you could trick them with a smooth bridge to M2, but many ears, even non-singer ears, will hear right through it and the singer will sound inferior to the folks who are truly carrying up M1 all the way and shifting resonance without letting go into any form of M2 whatsoever until above C5 for males. There is no need for it below that, except for less powerful intensities. Letting go to M2 earlier, and trying to add full power onto that, is the more awkward and unnatural way to train the voice. The weight of M1 can be much more easily shed back to have as much finesse as M2 and will sound far more convincing than any amount of beefing up M2.

Last edited by Owen Korzec (2014-12-01 05:19:30)

Offline

 

#60 2014-12-01 05:11:17

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Thats great to hear... the truth is... any good program with some good training content is going to launch most people forward greatly. Just the simple act of running around the track and moving your legs, is going to get you stronger and expand your lungs if you a runner, even if there were somethings you could be doing better, or if you had better shoes to train in.

It only takes a little bit of commitment and some training content to get the speaking voice to wake up and make pretty good gains initially. The first phase of growth is an explosion and shoots fast... its the other, more advanced phases after  you get a voice that is stronger and coordinated that takes more work.  The last 30-20% is the long haul... but that first spurt is usually fast and impressive for most people.

Ken is a great coach, no doubt. But we all have things we can learn and improve on. Not sure he would say that about me on his forum however,... but then again, he doesn't operate an open forum, I do.

Offline

 

#61 2014-12-01 05:11:58

MDEW
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 2866
Reputation :   32 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

There is much more to singing than range and pitch. Most people do not even think about things like dynamics, timing, phrasing, diction, lagato, steccato, prosody ....... choices..... Do I belt?, Do I cry? Do I scream? Vibrato, no Vibrato? To Rasp or not to Rasp? that is a question.  For a lot of people it is inherent, natural "Oh this song is sad. I need to sing it soft." Or do I ?
    Sure you can train with simple scales and a few "Basics" but singing and progressing takes guidence from someone who knows what they are doing and why. Training on its own MAY build the instrument but Learning how to play it is MORE important.
    A program or Coach is what you need to learn the skills to actually PLAY your voice.

   A long time ago we had the debate here "do you Learn to Sing or do you Train to sing". I still say you LEARN HOW TO SING.  If you learn how to play piano you can play it on a 44 key keyboard or an 88 key piano. Just because you have a full size instument does not mean you know how to PLAY it.


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

Offline

 

#62 2014-12-01 05:14:53

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Mdew that's what etc means


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

Offline

 

#63 2014-12-01 05:15:46

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Yes, you learn to train and yo learn to sing... you don't really train to learn to sing... not really. It helps for sure, but its not really going to take you all the way to real, soulful interpretations... thats trust. To really sing great, you need to practice singing.

Offline

 

#64 2014-12-01 05:23:33

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Clevertrevor76 wrote:

Daniel, you're an amazing singer dude. I checked out some of your YouTube stuff/lessons. Very down to earth, simple effective explanations and professional singer. I'm currently a KTVA member and investing my time in that program but from what I've seen, your lessons/voice/information has been very comparable/outstanding dude. If I was to start taking lessons, you'd be the guy I'd go to.

Thanks clevertrevor. I appreciate that. One thing is for sure I try not to talk about anything I can't demonstrate. I want students to know there is a way to go about this technique thing and if I can't do it I won't talk about it or write it. Thanks again


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

Offline

 

#65 2014-12-01 05:29:14

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Owen Korzec wrote:

Robert Lunte wrote:

Owen, TVS is teaching call register and the techniques for it, one voice, pulling from the bottom up... with proper formant / vowel tuning. Its basically an Attach & Release Onset, with the M1 / Call musculature... I hope you recognize that.  It is in fact, what an A&R should be, if it is "best practice"... if you do an A&R Onset, this is the way it should be done... and all the "vinnie pizzeria" ideas, etc.... it is all part of a TVS training experience, provided that the student is ready for it.

There's not much to be ready for though. I am concerned about vocal teachers waiting too long to teach this or not fully understanding what it is.

You (by you I mean everyone) can't train high M2 beefier and beefier until it eventually becomes high M1. You need to practice stretching M1 up as high as you can without constricting, and bridge into M2 as high as possible. They is not much need to prepare to be "ready" for this. One thing I was taught is to practice this concept in a falsettoey intensity so you are at least not battling with the weight of the full call register, but you are training the idea of delaying the release to M2 as high/late as possible. It will still be an early bridge but the idea is to bridge as late as you can for that intensity. Then once you have that, you can add compression so that you can approach this idea with a mixed voice kind of sound which will bridge a couple steps higher, and then later on get into the true strengthening of the fullest heaviest part of the voice - but the point is, you work on the bridging late idea from the beginning. And it IS bridging late, or let's call it bridging high - the M1 is gradually releasing, but not giving into the M2 mechanism until a high point. It's NOT bridging with more musculature. Because the musculature is there to begin with if you approach it from a supported call sensation - this intention of staying in your natural speaking/shouting voice as high as you can.

Mind you, the resonant shifts are another form of "bridges". Those don't really move. You shift resonance at the F4 (then again at the Bb4, etc.), but the call voice gets sent through it - staying in M1 up to the A4-C5 for men (eventually - this can and should be learned in less than a year). The resonance shift is what gives it the release valve to continue carrying through with the full M1 musculature. The musculature was never changed or added on or anything fancy like that - only maintained and stretched higher like stretching any other muscle.

You cannot bridge early (surrender to M2 at a very "lazy" point) and then try to add back power to that foundation, without forcing your voice into an extremely unnatural coordination that many people will dislike hearing. Period, end of story. The mere idea of growing the head voice, tends to trick students, sometimes even vocal teachers themselves, into that problem and then they sound both strained AND weak in the high range. Terrible combination that no one wants.

The balance of power and finesse that most audiences expect to hear in contemporary singers, lives almost entirely inside M1 for every singer (this is not to discredit the wonder M2 singers out there - but that is a "unique" thing). You'd think you could trick them with a smooth bridge to M2, but many ears, even non-singer ears, will hear right through it and the singer will sound inferior to the folks who are truly carrying up M1 all the way and shifting resonance without letting go into any form of M2 whatsoever until above C5 for males. There is no need for it below that, except for less powerful intensities. Letting go to M2 earlier, and trying to add full power onto that, is the more awkward and unnatural way to train the voice. The weight of M1 can be much more easily shed back to have as much finesse as M2 and will sound far more convincing than any amount of beefing up M2.

Owen I can't wait to see what you write 2-3 years from now it will be almost completely differnt from what you believe today. And that's what is great about students learning..


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

Offline

 

#66 2014-12-01 05:32:57

Clevertrevor76
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-28
Posts: 11
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Robert Lunte wrote:

Thats great to hear... the truth is... any good program with some good training content is going to launch most people forward greatly. Just the simple act of running around the track and moving your legs, is going to get you stronger and expand your lungs if you a runner, even if there were somethings you could be doing better, or if you had better shoes to train in.

It only takes a little bit of commitment and some training content to get the speaking voice to wake up and make pretty good gains initially. The first phase of growth is an explosion and shoots fast... its the other, more advanced phases after  you get a voice that is stronger and coordinated that takes more work.  The last 30-20% is the long haul... but that first spurt is usually fast and impressive for most people.

Ken is a great coach, no doubt. But we all have things we can learn and improve on. Not sure he would say that about me on his forum however,... but then again, he doesn't operate an open forum, I do.

I can't speak for him but regarding the forum, there is no discussion of any other methods good, bad or flat out ugly. I have seen his video on sls but there is no bashing of that method or any methods on his private forums. I thought it was really strange that we couldn't compare different methods as well but I honestly believe it's to avoid flame wars, bashing and mixing up methodology so students don't get sidetracked. The only marketing I have seen on the forum is 'if you like how he sings, he will show you how he got there and how he does it.' Posts are quickly deleted if posters  flame products as well. There's enough comparisons on the web between different methods anyway. of course ktva students are going to promote the product, just as singing success students would theirs and the same for 'four pillars' as well. Everyone thinks the product they have forked out the cash for is the best.

Offline

 

#67 2014-12-01 05:39:26

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Clevertrevor76 wrote:

From what I've read there is a lot if misinformation regarding Kens method. It's almost like they have only seen the marketing and haven't got the actual course.

Agreed.

I don't own the course personally but I've trained with one of his students. I was very shocked (in a good way) at some of the things I was taught. A lot of lighter stuff that trains great finesse into the voice. It IS a balanced method - so long as you buy all the stages I guess. I think that's another point where Ken loses some customers. They see a stage 1 that's all chest pulling with vowel mods and they wonder why they paid so much for a simple one sided view of the voice. But from what I've gathered, there is a method to his madness if you go through it completely.

Offline

 

#68 2014-12-01 05:43:49

Clevertrevor76
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-28
Posts: 11
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Ps... I'm hoping I'm not coming across as a fanboy about ktva but there is a lot of misinformation about the product posted here on the forums. I own the full course and if anyone has questions regarding content without starting a war I'll be happy to answer.

Last edited by Clevertrevor76 (2014-12-01 05:48:16)

Offline

 

#69 2014-12-01 05:57:33

Clevertrevor76
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-28
Posts: 11
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Owen Korzec wrote:

Clevertrevor76 wrote:

From what I've read there is a lot if misinformation regarding Kens method. It's almost like they have only seen the marketing and haven't got the actual course.

Agreed.

I don't own the course personally but I've trained with one of his students. I was very shocked (in a good way) at some of the things I was taught. A lot of lighter stuff that trains great finesse into the voice. It IS a balanced method - so long as you buy all the stages I guess. I think that's another point where Ken loses some customers. They see a

stage 1 that's all chest pulling with vowel mods and they wonder why they paid so much for a simple one sided view of the voice. But from what I've gathered, there is a method to his madness if you go through it completely.

Stage 1 is more about correct technique more than anything else with some gentle stretching... And yes early bridging! the belting/wailing stuff really doesn't happen until vol. 3 because it's the equivalent of walking into a gym, not knowing what you're doing and trying to bench press 300 pounds. That's what I mean about his marketing campaign, it sounds like his course is going to rip you're chest out of your throat but the course is not like that at all. Yes, It will teach you how to wail (if you want)but it takes the safe, necessary steps to get you there.

The thing is Ken is a world class rock and metal singer, no ass kissing, he just is, no ifs ands  or buts. So that's who his primary target is. He is trying to rectify that now (heavily) though with the new vids I've seen, john legend, ed sheeran, Tina's 'let it go.'

Last edited by Clevertrevor76 (2014-12-01 06:14:46)

Offline

 

#70 2014-12-01 06:04:44

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Danielformica wrote:

Owen I can't wait to see what you write 2-3 years from now it will be almost completely differnt from what you believe today. And that's what is great about students learning..

I totally get that, my posts from a couple years ago talked about completely different stuff. Some of it I still believe, some is quite different. But I think it's important not to forget the past things you have learned that brought you to where you are.

However I am curious why you think I will change my mind on this post currently. Let me know if there's anything you think I'm fundamentally misled about, I am open to rethinking things. Or if it's just poor explanation I can see that.

It's hard to explain things to the audience of users who are very much into the methods and the terms. If I were to just teach a good friend singing it would be a lot simpler I think. Something like "As you go high try to relax your throat but don't flip to falsetto". I'd at least give that a shot first. See how simple I can explain it.

But for folks like me and others on here who have heard information from tons of teachers and encountered the whole mental jumble of conflicting information, sometimes we have to chose our words very carefully explaining to those people

Offline

 

#71 2014-12-01 06:11:34

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Owen Korzec wrote:

Robert Lunte wrote:

Owen, TVS is teaching call register and the techniques for it, one voice, pulling from the bottom up... with proper formant / vowel tuning. Its basically an Attach & Release Onset, with the M1 / Call musculature... I hope you recognize that.  It is in fact, what an A&R should be, if it is "best practice"... if you do an A&R Onset, this is the way it should be done... and all the "vinnie pizzeria" ideas, etc.... it is all part of a TVS training experience, provided that the student is ready for it.

There's not much to be ready for though. I am concerned about vocal teachers waiting too long to teach this or not fully understanding what it is.

You (by you I mean everyone) can't train high M2 beefier and beefier until it eventually becomes high M1. You need to practice stretching M1 up as high as you can without constricting, and bridge into M2 as high as possible. They is not much need to prepare to be "ready" for this. One thing I was taught is to practice this concept in a falsettoey intensity so you are at least not battling with the weight of the full call register, but you are training the idea of delaying the release to M2 as high/late as possible. It will still be an early bridge but the idea is to bridge as late as you can for that intensity. Then once you have that, you can add compression so that you can approach this idea with a mixed voice kind of sound which will bridge a couple steps higher, and then later on get into the true strengthening of the fullest heaviest part of the voice - but the point is, you work on the bridging late idea from the beginning. And it IS bridging late, or let's call it bridging high - the M1 is gradually releasing, but not giving into the M2 mechanism until a high point. It's NOT bridging with more musculature. Because the musculature is there to begin with if you approach it from a supported call sensation - this intention of staying in your natural speaking/shouting voice as high as you can.

Mind you, the resonant shifts are another form of "bridges". Those don't really move. You shift resonance at the F4 (then again at the Bb4, etc.), but the call voice gets sent through it - staying in M1 up to the A4-C5 for men (eventually - this can and should be learned in less than a year). The resonance shift is what gives it the release valve to continue carrying through with the full M1 musculature. The musculature was never changed or added on or anything fancy like that - only maintained and stretched higher like stretching any other muscle.

You cannot bridge early (surrender to M2 at a very "lazy" point) and then try to add back power to that foundation, without forcing your voice into an extremely unnatural coordination that many people will dislike hearing. Period, end of story. The mere idea of growing the head voice, tends to trick students, sometimes even vocal teachers themselves, into that problem and then they sound both strained AND weak in the high range. Terrible combination that no one wants.

The balance of power and finesse that most audiences expect to hear in contemporary singers, lives almost entirely inside M1 for every singer (this is not to discredit the wonder M2 singers out there - but that is a "unique" thing). You'd think you could trick them with a smooth bridge to M2, but many ears, even non-singer ears, will hear right through it and the singer will sound inferior to the folks who are truly carrying up M1 all the way and shifting resonance without letting go into any form of M2 whatsoever until above C5 for males. There is no need for it below that, except for less powerful intensities. Letting go to M2 earlier, and trying to add full power onto that, is the more awkward and unnatural way to train the voice. The weight of M1 can be much more easily shed back to have as much finesse as M2 and will sound far more convincing than any amount of beefing up M2.

Yes, I totally agree with you Owen... M1 musculature is truly "anchored" and when you train it, you can feel the resistance training benefits from it, especially the "call' register ideas. You can feel your voice strengthening by the minute sometimes. The trick is to train to keep the "call" configuration anchored, while training the articulators and vocal tract to tune the formant properly for each frequency and bridge. Add to that, good balance of respiration at the sub-glottal position and command and control of the glottis. Lastly, to apply and practice all that with singing.

This is precisely what I am teaching these days to my students, "Pulling" M1, "Call" Register ideas... a lot more A&R onsets (which is what a good "Call" or "Vinnie" onset should be) and focusing on building that M1 "Pull"... Your explanation is good Owen. I know you have been impressed by all this... guess what... that is what the latest TVS content and ideas are covering. If you and I trained these days, this is the kind of stuff we would be going over... BTW... It was Elizabeth Sabine who really popularized "call" register ideas, not Ken.

None of that invalidates other techniques you have been exposed to Owen. "Call"ing... is nothing more then an A&R onset done properly. Every TVS Onset has a purpose for coordinations and trouble-shooting benefits, Call register are A&R, C&R onsets. Try practicing "The Swinger" with A&R onsets in a "call" configuration, and you can see that its all about knowing what your doing, understanding that anchored M1 feeling... Tell me that an octave siren with T&R at the bottom and a "call" A&R at the top on an :a vowel isn't going to pull your M1 musculature?  You can do a "call" at the top of a siren. Its all in how you use the content.  However, as cool as it is and as much as we both agree how important it is Owen, it isn't the only way to use the voice. You don't have to make a choice Owen... you can do both and benefit from the sound colors that both approaches give you. Other coaches are leading you to believe you have to make a choice. You don't...

To state that you can start on "Call" immediately depends. Your not a voice coach. Some people just are not ready for M1 Pulling Owen. We already had several people jump on here stating they got nowhere from it. Some people must first get oriented with the registers, learning how to make a high quality onset (Q&R, T&R, etc...)... getting some vocalize going, learning how to practice...  you take a lot for granted when you tell everyone on the first day to start pulling chest.

"The Four Pillars of Singing" consists of my ideas, and any of the good ideas I have learned and come across from all the great teachers and schools.... If you want to train call register ideas, train "ah" vowels and belt until your veins pop out of your neck... you can do that all day long with me if you wanted to. Or if you want to train in lighter mass configurations, sound more lyrical and not hurt yourself because your not ready for chest pulling, you can do that too.

Your not onto something that hasn't already been totally incorporated into the TVS Method in the last year Owen... ;)

Offline

 

#72 2014-12-01 06:21:11

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Danielformica wrote:

Owen Korzec wrote:

Robert Lunte wrote:

Owen, TVS is teaching call register and the techniques for it, one voice, pulling from the bottom up... with proper formant / vowel tuning. Its basically an Attach & Release Onset, with the M1 / Call musculature... I hope you recognize that.  It is in fact, what an A&R should be, if it is "best practice"... if you do an A&R Onset, this is the way it should be done... and all the "vinnie pizzeria" ideas, etc.... it is all part of a TVS training experience, provided that the student is ready for it.

There's not much to be ready for though. I am concerned about vocal teachers waiting too long to teach this or not fully understanding what it is.

You (by you I mean everyone) can't train high M2 beefier and beefier until it eventually becomes high M1. You need to practice stretching M1 up as high as you can without constricting, and bridge into M2 as high as possible. They is not much need to prepare to be "ready" for this. One thing I was taught is to practice this concept in a falsettoey intensity so you are at least not battling with the weight of the full call register, but you are training the idea of delaying the release to M2 as high/late as possible. It will still be an early bridge but the idea is to bridge as late as you can for that intensity. Then once you have that, you can add compression so that you can approach this idea with a mixed voice kind of sound which will bridge a couple steps higher, and then later on get into the true strengthening of the fullest heaviest part of the voice - but the point is, you work on the bridging late idea from the beginning. And it IS bridging late, or let's call it bridging high - the M1 is gradually releasing, but not giving into the M2 mechanism until a high point. It's NOT bridging with more musculature. Because the musculature is there to begin with if you approach it from a supported call sensation - this intention of staying in your natural speaking/shouting voice as high as you can.

Mind you, the resonant shifts are another form of "bridges". Those don't really move. You shift resonance at the F4 (then again at the Bb4, etc.), but the call voice gets sent through it - staying in M1 up to the A4-C5 for men (eventually - this can and should be learned in less than a year). The resonance shift is what gives it the release valve to continue carrying through with the full M1 musculature. The musculature was never changed or added on or anything fancy like that - only maintained and stretched higher like stretching any other muscle.

You cannot bridge early (surrender to M2 at a very "lazy" point) and then try to add back power to that foundation, without forcing your voice into an extremely unnatural coordination that many people will dislike hearing. Period, end of story. The mere idea of growing the head voice, tends to trick students, sometimes even vocal teachers themselves, into that problem and then they sound both strained AND weak in the high range. Terrible combination that no one wants.

The balance of power and finesse that most audiences expect to hear in contemporary singers, lives almost entirely inside M1 for every singer (this is not to discredit the wonder M2 singers out there - but that is a "unique" thing). You'd think you could trick them with a smooth bridge to M2, but many ears, even non-singer ears, will hear right through it and the singer will sound inferior to the folks who are truly carrying up M1 all the way and shifting resonance without letting go into any form of M2 whatsoever until above C5 for males. There is no need for it below that, except for less powerful intensities. Letting go to M2 earlier, and trying to add full power onto that, is the more awkward and unnatural way to train the voice. The weight of M1 can be much more easily shed back to have as much finesse as M2 and will sound far more convincing than any amount of beefing up M2.

Owen I can't wait to see what you write 2-3 years from now it will be almost completely differnt from what you believe today. And that's what is great about students learning..

Ditto... some wisdom from Daniel... for anyone that is a student of voice.

Offline

 

#73 2014-12-01 06:25:39

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Clevertrevor76 wrote:

Owen Korzec wrote:

Clevertrevor76 wrote:

From what I've read there is a lot if misinformation regarding Kens method. It's almost like they have only seen the marketing and haven't got the actual course.

Agreed.

I don't own the course personally but I've trained with one of his students. I was very shocked (in a good way) at some of the things I was taught. A lot of lighter stuff that trains great finesse into the voice. It IS a balanced method - so long as you buy all the stages I guess. I think that's another point where Ken loses some customers. They see a

stage 1 that's all chest pulling with vowel mods and they wonder why they paid so much for a simple one sided view of the voice. But from what I've gathered, there is a method to his madness if you go through it completely.

Stage 1 is more about correct technique more than anything else with some gentle stretching... And yes early bridging! the belting/wailing stuff really doesn't happen until vol. 3 because it's the equivalent of walking into a gym, not knowing what you're doing and trying to bench press 300 pounds. That's what I mean about his marketing campaign, it sounds like his course is going to rip you're chest out of your throat but the course is not like that at all. Yes, It will teach you how to wail (if you want)but it takes the safe, necessary steps to get you there.

The thing is Ken is a world class rock and metal singer, no ass kissing, he just is, no ifs ands  or buts. So that's who his primary target is. He is trying to rectify that now (heavily) though with the new vids I've seen, john legend, ed sheeran, Tina's 'let it go.'

".... you have to only work on chest pulling techniques and there is no reason to wait"? Hmm... seems that Ken doesn't agree... seems that Ken has a phased approach, just like "Pillars"... don't be so quick to drink the cool-aid...

Offline

 

#74 2014-12-01 06:29:29

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Owen, I actually sense that a lot of the debating on this forum has resulted in sorting out a lot of "best practices" actually... CVI Edging, "Call" register ideas, trained chest pulls, formants, vowels, onsets... its all leading to a set of "best practices".

Offline

 

#75 2014-12-01 06:30:59

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Sounds cool Rob, would be cool to hear it in your voice or some students of yours. Just out of curiosity. Whenever you are ready.

Offline

 

#76 2014-12-01 06:36:11

Clevertrevor76
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-28
Posts: 11
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Robert Lunte wrote:

Clevertrevor76 wrote:

Owen Korzec wrote:

Agreed.

I don't own the course personally but I've trained with one of his students. I was very shocked (in a good way) at some of the things I was taught. A lot of lighter stuff that trains great finesse into the voice. It IS a balanced method - so long as you buy all the stages I guess. I think that's another point where Ken loses some customers. They see a

stage 1 that's all chest pulling with vowel mods and they wonder why they paid so much for a simple one sided view of the voice. But from what I've gathered, there is a method to his madness if you go through it completely.

Stage 1 is more about correct technique more than anything else with some gentle stretching... And yes early bridging! the belting/wailing stuff really doesn't happen until vol. 3 because it's the equivalent of walking into a gym, not knowing what you're doing and trying to bench press 300 pounds. That's what I mean about his marketing campaign, it sounds like his course is going to rip you're chest out of your throat but the course is not like that at all. Yes, It will teach you how to wail (if you want)but it takes the safe, necessary steps to get you there.

The thing is Ken is a world class rock and metal singer, no ass kissing, he just is, no ifs ands  or buts. So that's who his primary target is. He is trying to rectify that now (heavily) though with the new vids I've seen, john legend, ed sheeran, Tina's 'let it go.'

".... you have to only work on chest pulling techniques and there is no reason to wait"? Hmm... seems that Ken doesn't agree... seems that Ken has a phased approach, just like "Pillars"... don't be so quick to drink the cool-aid...

Yes, definitely a phased/stages approach. Pulling is the really, really wrong word for stage 1 in my opinion but you will get a feel and handle for the call register after a month or so if you do the work.

Last edited by Clevertrevor76 (2014-12-01 06:36:57)

Offline

 

#77 2014-12-01 06:40:43

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Owen Korzec wrote:

Sounds cool Rob, would be cool to hear it in your voice or some students of yours. Just out of curiosity. Whenever you are ready.

Well, hook up for a sesh and Ill show you what we are working on and do plenty of showing off for you... as for singing, about four new recordings coming out with more M1 musculature soon... working on producing it now... its where Im putting my time...

Offline

 

#78 2014-12-01 06:49:41

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Robert Lunte wrote:

Owen, I actually sense that a lot of the debating on this forum has resulted in sorting out a lot of "best practices" actually... CVI Edging, "Call" register ideas, trained chest pulls, formants, vowels, onsets... its all leading to a set of "best practices".

Yeah I can dig that kind of stuff. Some of it is a bit restrictive, but for instance CVT's idea of the overdrive limit at C5 for men and Eb4 for females - I would actually take that into account as a composer. If I want a sustained money note with F1/H2, now I know how high is too high. If I give a man a C#5 or a female an E5, sure they can sing it in full voice - but it's going to have an Edge-like shreiky character to it that I probably don't want for most songs.

A great one I think we can pull from KTVA is the whole classical AH-AW-OUH-OO modification sequence (I forget the IPA symbols, sorry) - it's a staple of KTVA and as I've been taught, there are elements of that sequence happening behind the mods of ALL the vowels. It has also been a staple of Bel Canto technique for who knows how many centuries.

That one really helped me figure out how to stop choking on high M1 - each new vowel in that sequence represents another resonant shift you cross.

Offline

 

#79 2014-12-01 07:01:24

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Cool Owen... yes, there are some range points in the CVI book that I don't necessarily agree with, but its not a big deal. .. Cool formula Owen, Ill add it to "Pillars"... we will now have 13 key vowel modification formulas in the system.  Ive been working a lot with Ah < Aw movements myself... you can get a real nice amplified ring on that movement, yes... especially above A4.

Offline

 

#80 2014-12-01 09:05:44

Clevertrevor76
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-28
Posts: 11
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Robert Lunte wrote:

Clevertrevor76 wrote:

Owen Korzec wrote:


Agreed.

I don't own the course personally but I've trained with one of his students. I was very shocked (in a good way) at some of the things I was taught. A lot of lighter stuff that trains great finesse into the voice. It IS a balanced method - so long as you buy all the stages I guess. I think that's another point where Ken loses some customers. They see a

stage 1 that's all chest pulling with vowel mods and they wonder why they paid so much for a simple one sided view of the voice. But from what I've gathered, there is a method to his madness if you go through it completely.

Stage 1 is more about correct technique more than anything else with some gentle stretching... And yes early bridging! the belting/wailing stuff really doesn't happen until vol. 3 because it's the equivalent of walking into a gym, not knowing what you're doing and trying to bench press 300 pounds. That's what I mean about his marketing campaign, it sounds like his course is going to rip you're chest out of your throat but the course is not like that at all. Yes, It will teach you how to wail (if you want)but it takes the safe, necessary steps to get you there.

The thing is Ken is a world class rock and metal singer, no ass kissing, he just is, no ifs ands  or buts. So that's who his primary target is. He is trying to rectify that now (heavily) though with the new vids I've seen, john legend, ed sheeran, Tina's 'let it go.'

".... you have to only work on chest pulling techniques and there is no reason to wait"? Hmm... seems that Ken doesn't agree... seems that Ken has a phased approach, just like "Pillars"... don't be so quick to drink the cool-aid...

I can't find that quote... But he has hours of material and a whole volume dedicated to building a strong timbral head voice ala Geoff Tate, beegees etc... So maybe it was a marketing thing.

Offline

 

#81 2014-12-01 13:37:52

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Owen Korzec wrote:

Mind you, the resonant shifts are another form of "bridges". Those don't really move. You shift resonance at the F4 (then again at the Bb4, etc.), but the call voice gets sent through it - staying in M1 up to the A4-C5 for men (eventually - this can and should be learned in less than a year). The resonance shift is what gives it the release valve to continue carrying through with the full M1 musculature. The musculature was never changed or added on or anything fancy like that - only maintained and stretched higher like stretching any other muscle.

Owen, I know that Daniel talks about the same kind of fixed "bridges" but I'm very interested in what those resonant shifts really are? Why they don't move (hence why ex. at F4)? And how they act as a "release valve"?

Owen Korzec wrote:

A great one I think we can pull from KTVA is the whole classical AH-AW-OUH-OO modification sequence (I forget the IPA symbols, sorry) - it's a staple of KTVA and as I've been taught, there are elements of that sequence happening behind the mods of ALL the vowels. It has also been a staple of Bel Canto technique for who knows how many centuries.

In my opinion that sequence is based on preference or choice and not on necessity. You don't have to make that progressive narrowing of the vowels as you ascend unless you like that sound of course.

Last edited by Martin H (2014-12-01 13:46:30)

Offline

 

#82 2014-12-01 14:35:14

Jens
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 1461
Reputation :   36 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin H wrote:

Owen Korzec wrote:

Mind you, the resonant shifts are another form of "bridges". Those don't really move. You shift resonance at the F4 (then again at the Bb4, etc.), but the call voice gets sent through it - staying in M1 up to the A4-C5 for men (eventually - this can and should be learned in less than a year). The resonance shift is what gives it the release valve to continue carrying through with the full M1 musculature. The musculature was never changed or added on or anything fancy like that - only maintained and stretched higher like stretching any other muscle.

Owen, I know that Daniel talks about the same kind of fixed "bridges" but I'm very interested in what those resonant shifts really are? Why they don't move (hence why ex. at F4)? And how they act as a "release valve"?

I can answer that, as ive talked alot and got demonstranted what Daniel means by that :)

basicly Daniel doesnt view the "bridges" as static but rather they move around depending on what sound and intensity you are going for.
for instance if your singing in a very light sound there will be certain modifications needed to keep going in the same soundcolor without raising the volume much.
if your singing loudly the modifications will be diffrent to keep going with a similar volume.

To be honest it's very similar to what ive learned from you only explains diffrently

Cheers

Offline

 

#83 2014-12-01 15:12:22

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

@Jens

That's not what I understand from what Daniel has said:

Danielformica wrote:

The idea of bridging is not to do your first modification at c5..your first bridge starts before middle c4. So you modify slightly at or before c4. Then again around e4ish then again at or around Bb4 and again at the c5 or c#5. If you try and bring certain vowels up to c5 without slightly changing them before you will certain end up shouty and ugly sounding.

I don't recall that I've said something similar to that? But again, I'm interested in knowing what resonant shifts that happens at these (fixed) "bridges" (C4, E4, Bb4 and C5)?

Last edited by Martin H (2014-12-01 15:31:23)

Offline

 

#84 2014-12-01 15:39:44

Jens
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 1461
Reputation :   36 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin H wrote:

@Jens

That's not what I understand from what Daniel have said:

Danielformica wrote:

The idea of bridging is not to do your first modification at c5..your first bridge starts before middle c4. So you modify slightly at or before c4. Then again around e4ish then again at or around Bb4 and again at the c5 or c#5. If you try and bring certain vowels up to c5 without slightly changing them before you will certain end up shouty and ugly sounding.

I don't recall that I've said something similar to that? But again, I'm interested in knowing what resonant shifts that happens at these (fixed) "bridges" (C4, E4, Bb4 and C5)?

yes as i said, you explain stuff diffrently ;) it's much clearer when you hear the sounds that are aimed for.

Last edited by Jens (2014-12-01 15:41:07)

Offline

 

#85 2014-12-01 15:46:18

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

@Jens

Well, I kind of can't explain it differently since I don't know what Daniel or Owen mean by these "bridges" at those specific points, that's why I'm asking in the first place. :)

Last edited by Martin H (2014-12-01 15:47:33)

Offline

 

#86 2014-12-01 18:22:09

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin, I think they are referring to formant shifts... I believe Ken refers to it as "releasing the valve"... or that resonant shift sensation you get as you pass through certain points on the voice.

When I hear the idea of bridges or formant shifts remaining static, my ears perk up... not sure I'm prepared to believe that. And wouldn't that be contradictory to the idea of remaining in a certain formant / vowel as long as you can to build resistance training?  You can't have it both ways... you can bridge higher or lower if you want to and the bridges remain static... its one or the other?  :rolleyes: Either you going to enable the formant to shift, or your not... either way, that would not make it static. "Bridge Higher" vs "Bridge Lower"... Late vs Early... that is contradictory to static bridges.

basicly Daniel doesnt view the "bridges" as static but rather they move around depending on what sound and intensity you are going for.
for instance if your singing in a very light sound there will be certain modifications needed to keep going in the same soundcolor without raising the volume much.
if your singing loudly the modifications will be diffrent to keep going with a similar volume.

This is why I'm not inclined to believe in static formant shifting. I believe this to be true... certainly, in my personal experience... if Im singing or training in a  lighter mass, the modifications are different in vowel, compression & M1 engagement/"pull".

In my opinion that sequence is based on preference or choice and not on necessity. You don't have to make that progressive narrowing of the vowels as you ascend unless you like that sound of course.

Agreed Martin... but to recognize the formula as a good "resistance" training formula, is to appreciate its value I believe. Even if you don't want to narrow that much, it will train certain coordinations and strength therein.

... and I finally learned how to use the damn quote feature on this thing... lol... that always stumped me for some dumb reason...

Nice responses guys...

Offline

 

#87 2014-12-01 18:28:08

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin H wrote:

@Jens

Well, I kind of can't explain it differently since I don't know what Daniel or Owen mean by these "bridges" at those specific points, that's why I'm asking in the first place. :)

Love Martin's disposition for cutting through the BS and/or the vague, and getting to clarity and facts.

Offline

 

#88 2014-12-01 19:34:46

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

The easiest way to explain it is take a strict ah vowel not uh not aw but ah and start moving it up note by note and keep it ah, starting at f3 by the time you get to Bb3 or the c4 you will notice if you are percise to keep it ah the volume starts to get louder but if you slightly change it to uh or ad some oh to it you can keep it the same volume and you will feel a slight lift. If not you just keep getting louder and louder till you eventually break. Try it as an experiment.

And really try and feel the ah and how it gets weird below the middle c. It's kinda cool when I take singers through it and they feel for themselves

And I like to look at them like this 1st bridge-Bb3  second- E4   third-Bb4 then next c#or D5.   You could call the second bridge the first but I do feel the first one. And these are not exact notes depending on the voice its one or 2 semitones around there.

Last edited by Danielformica (2014-12-01 19:43:23)


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

Offline

 

#89 2014-12-01 19:40:22

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Danielformica wrote:

The easiest way to explain it is take a strict ah vowel not uh not aw but ah and start moving it up note by note and keep it ah, starting at f3 by the time you get to Bb3 or the c4 you will notice if you are percise to keep it ah the volume starts to get louder but if you slightly change it to uh or ad some oh to it you can keep it the same volume and you will feel a slight lift. If not you just keep getting louder and louder till you eventually break. Try it as an experiment.

And really try and feel the ah and how it gets weird below the middle c. It's kinda cool when I take singers through it and they feel for themselves

A while back, we had a thread with a question about what was the favorite vowel sound to train with. And I pick ah because it is sink or swim. You need to have breath management going on, all the good things going right to make it right. The trick is to get a solid ah sound and not the other sounds you mentioned, Daniel. Even I have been guilty of suggesting someone do a clean ah sound when I don't know what their "concept" of a clean ah sound is. For some, it might be that they have to shade one way or the other to slightly over correct at a correct ah sound, at least at first.

I likened it to my golf drive. I have a nasty slice (ball veers sharp right.) I learned from an old golfer to roll my second knuckle over to 12 o'clock. This creates a hook (which is ball veering left) to counteract my slice. And to start out with, this helped immediately. With that trick, I drove somewhere between 150 and 200 yards with a 5 iron.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

Offline

 

#90 2014-12-02 03:32:00

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Martin H wrote:

Owen Korzec wrote:

Mind you, the resonant shifts are another form of "bridges". Those don't really move. You shift resonance at the F4 (then again at the Bb4, etc.), but the call voice gets sent through it - staying in M1 up to the A4-C5 for men (eventually - this can and should be learned in less than a year). The resonance shift is what gives it the release valve to continue carrying through with the full M1 musculature. The musculature was never changed or added on or anything fancy like that - only maintained and stretched higher like stretching any other muscle.

Owen, I know that Daniel talks about the same kind of fixed "bridges" but I'm very interested in what those resonant shifts really are? Why they don't move (hence why ex. at F4)? And how they act as a "release valve"?

Owen Korzec wrote:

A great one I think we can pull from KTVA is the whole classical AH-AW-OUH-OO modification sequence (I forget the IPA symbols, sorry) - it's a staple of KTVA and as I've been taught, there are elements of that sequence happening behind the mods of ALL the vowels. It has also been a staple of Bel Canto technique for who knows how many centuries.

In my opinion that sequence is based on preference or choice and not on necessity. You don't have to make that progressive narrowing of the vowels as you ascend unless you like that sound of course.

I'm sorry I was a bit unclear. They can be moved. They can also be trained to shift higher over time and strengthening (less need to rely on them to provide "cushioning"), or lower by choice, or you can have different resonance shift points for different vowels. But I just know a lot of singers will pick a spot and stick to it so they can have consistent results and tone.

My main point was that in the discussion of "bridging early" and "bridging late" we are usually talking about a different kind of bridging - the transition point of M1 to M2. That, I have found from listening to many singers, is a lot more variable depending on the desired intensity. Martin I think this is how you personally define the term bridging, correctly?

"bridges" in the sense of resonant shifts is a complete different think. It is what Dan talks about as well as some other coaches, especially Bel Canto folks.

The narrowing sequence - I do like the sound of it sometimes. The other argument I would make is that the progressive narrowing is easier and more intuitive, but that is subjective as well and I am not going to try to argue that is a hard and fast fact.

Wasn't it you that said the throat must narrow the higher you go?

Offline

 

#91 2014-12-02 04:53:06

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Robert Lunte wrote:

Ive been working a lot with Ah < Aw movements myself... you can get a real nice amplified ring on that movement, yes... especially above A4.

That's not the position that modification is usually taught in Bel canto and would not be as productive to train (at first).

Modifying to AW around the E4-A4 range roughly, is where it provides the most imperative resonant cushioning (due to some helpful formant alignments) which prevents the throat from constricting in response to the heavier call-like phonation, and acts as what Ken would call a release valve.

You can leave it out and do some resistance training on the pure AH at that point, but that would be an auxillary thing and training for strength, not training for singing. And most students initially would not be able to carry M1 high enough or bridge it high into M2 without the release valve of the AW, because without it they will eventually constrict and hit a ceiling. The AW mod kind of takes away the range ceiling and allows you to carry M1 up higher, so does the OUH and OO up higher - when done correctly these all help prevent the constrictions that would happen if you tried to belt on pure vowels. The issue is learning to do them correctly takes a great deal of training under careful guidance from a coach who knows Bel canto.

Martin, when I talk about bridging around A4-C5 I mean the M1 to M2 shift.

The real source of this confusion, is different coaches are throwing around the term "bridge" to mean their own thing and there is becoming two main definitions that need to be differentiated.

There is a shift from M1 to M2. Staying in M1 up to A4-C5 is preferable for high intensities, the quieter you sing the lower it can go.

There are several resonant shifts all over the place starting as early as even below C4 as Dan mentions and they relate to formant shifts.

The MAIN resonant shift area is around the E, F, F#4 and the second one around the A, A#, B4. Even Seth Riggs understood this.

Call them whatever you want but coaches should be able to demonstrate both types of formerly "bridging" together, with the shifts happening in the correct spots. It's how true tenors (or baritones trained to become true tenors and not faking it with the modern definition of head voice) sing, at least in the true bel canto way. With current advances in vocal training it's not acceptable to make the mistake of thinking that the bridge from M1 to M2 happens at the E4/F4/F#4 point. Students including myself have begun to begin to hear some popular coaches making this mistake and/or allowing their students to, and have had to switch to others who teach the true full voice correctly.

Offline

 

#92 2014-12-02 05:52:44

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Owen Korzec wrote:

Robert Lunte wrote:

Ive been working a lot with Ah < Aw movements myself... you can get a real nice amplified ring on that movement, yes... especially above A4.

That's not the position that modification is usually taught in Bel canto and would not be as productive to train (at first).

Modifying to AW around the E4-A4 range roughly, is where it provides the most imperative resonant cushioning (due to some helpful formant alignments) which prevents the throat from constricting in response to the heavier call-like phonation, and acts as what Ken would call a release valve.

You can leave it out and do some resistance training on the pure AH at that point, but that would be an auxillary thing and training for strength, not training for singing. And most students initially would not be able to carry M1 high enough or bridge it high into M2 without the release valve of the AW, because without it they will eventually constrict and hit a ceiling. The AW mod kind of takes away the range ceiling and allows you to carry M1 up higher, so does the OUH and OO up higher - when done correctly these all help prevent the constrictions that would happen if you tried to belt on pure vowels. The issue is learning to do them correctly takes a great deal of training under careful guidance from a coach who knows Bel canto.

Martin, when I talk about bridging around A4-C5 I mean the M1 to M2 shift.

The real source of this confusion, is different coaches are throwing around the term "bridge" to mean their own thing and there is becoming two main definitions that need to be differentiated.

There is a shift from M1 to M2. Staying in M1 up to A4-C5 is preferable for high intensities, the quieter you sing the lower it can go.

There are several resonant shifts all over the place starting as early as even below C4 as Dan mentions and they relate to formant shifts.

The MAIN resonant shift area is around the E, F, F#4 and the second one around the A, A#, B4. Even Seth Riggs understood this.

Call them whatever you want but coaches should be able to demonstrate both types of formerly "bridging" together, with the shifts happening in the correct spots. It's how true tenors (or baritones trained to become true tenors and not faking it with the modern definition of head voice) sing, at least in the true bel canto way. With current advances in vocal training it's not acceptable to make the mistake of thinking that the bridge from M1 to M2 happens at the E4/F4/F#4 point. Students including myself have begun to begin to hear some popular coaches making this mistake and/or allowing their students to, and have had to switch to others who teach the true full voice correctly.

m1 to m2 is chest to falsetto.. I would love to know who is showing you "bel canto" as there are not to many teachers that truly know of or have even studied it. Cornelius Reid is gone I studied with Joel Ewing who studied with Reid but he only accepts a few.  Let me know i would like to talk about it and who you're studying with. Seriously hit me up


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

Offline

 

#93 2014-12-02 06:09:15

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Owen, my comment was simply a statement about how "aw" amplifies in my voice above a4. Why you feel like you need to "correct" me in regards to the standards of Bel Canto, is a bit out of context, but I think I understand where your coming from. lol.

What you fail to recognize, because your not a voice coach is... the reality of day to day voice coaching, means you will NOT have students that can pull "call" configurations up to A4 initially. Your post describes the kind of thing that more advanced and experienced students and singers can understand and train. Many new students are lucky if they can even phonate a decent onset with the proper vowel, let alone worry about pulling call configurations up to A4 with best practice Bel Canto vowel mods.

"Popular" voice teachers deal every day with rehabilitating voices that have been grinding in speech mode for a life time, helping people learn how to make an onset on pitch and simply teaching people how to practice... this is the daily real world of the "popular" voice coach.

That aside, I like your post, its pretty good. I couldn't agree with you more, when students are ready for it,... you should be working to build "one-voice", that is partly facilitated by building the strength and coordination of M1 musculature pulls, up to approximately A4 - C5 (for men)... assisted with good vowel tuning and compression / sub-glottal respiration pressure balance. Even if this heavier mass is not the sound color you want to go for, it will make you strong and very capable. I highly recommend it and teach it every day to my clients who are ready for it.

Offline

 

#94 2014-12-02 07:15:29

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Owen Korzec wrote:

Its not true bel canto of course - lots of coaches put their modern spin on it but what I'm learning is modernized but honors the old tried and true basic principles more (much like your teaching and singing) compared to certain modern methods that throw around a bunch of fancy terms but IMO don't ultimately give professional results.

Truth is Im studying with Phil Moufarrege now. You probably all remember he used to be on here and made posts with great insight. He was recently banned along with user CunoDante who also provided valuable info to this forum. All their posts were deleted as well.

Oh ok. I thought Phil studied with ken who definitely is not bel canto.


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

Offline

 

#95 2014-12-02 07:51:13

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Ken teaches what he calls advanced bel canto. Whether it really is or not i dont care. What I care is it sounds and feels correct.

Also worth noting Ken studied with Pavarottis teacher for a while. Is Pavarotti not a bel canto singer to you Dan?

I don't care about 100% bel canto I care about not ignoring important tried and true basic principles of singing that have been around for centuries. The exact idea youve mentioned of "bridges" rather than "bridge" as a verb, is one of them that I have found is rarely taught correctly. Phil understands it, and I think my current vocal teacher at berklee does too.

Last edited by Owen Korzec (2014-12-02 07:54:42)

Offline

 

#96 2014-12-02 08:23:42

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Pavarotti is great!!!! Of course a real true singer of bel canto and his father was too(but Pavarotti sang well before he met Pola and MJ sang well before he met Seth) you know what I'm saying?and Seth is awesome so I'm not saying anything about Seth he is a great teacher and person and one of my personal favorite coaches.  And I studied with a coach in Nyc who studied with Pola as well. I guess what he taught ken and what he taught my coach was a little different or we interpreted it different. Anyway I'm glad you are passionate about your coaches and seeking out what works best for you these last 4-5 years. There are no secrets and I'm sure you will see it's all very similar

Last edited by Danielformica (2014-12-02 08:48:16)


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

Offline

 

#97 2014-12-02 09:29:52

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

@Owen

I don't use the normal concept of "bridging". I acknowledge that there are certain places in ones range that can be difficult to navigate. Also, the progressive narrowing of the vowels has nothing to do with the narrowing that happens at the lower pharyngeal levels in regards to higher pitches.

I don't see why you have to alter the vowel at those specific places that you and others talk about? Actually, you can bridge on every single note just by changing the vowel (formant shift) if you like. Just say the word "hey" and you have made a formant shift on the same note. And I understand that's not what you guys mean about bridging?

A lot of people talk about the main passaggio and that you have to bridge that area (Eb4-G4). However, you don't have to do anything in that area unless you want to - hence you don't have to change the vowel.

Last edited by Martin H (2014-12-02 09:56:37)

Offline

 

#98 2014-12-02 09:42:06

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

@Daniel

I don't see any problems in using the "ah" vowel throughout the range without modifying? The only thing to be aware of is not using too much volume. So I still don't understand why you and others mention those specific "bridging" areas?

Last edited by Martin H (2014-12-02 09:57:27)

Offline

 

#99 2014-12-02 09:46:31

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Robert Lunte wrote:

When I hear the idea of bridges or formant shifts remaining static, my ears perk up... not sure I'm prepared to believe that. And wouldn't that be contradictory to the idea of remaining in a certain formant / vowel as long as you can to build resistance training?

This is also where I'm coming from. You can use the same vowel throughout the range. You don't have to modify at those specific "bridging" areas mentioned if you don't want to.

Last edited by Martin H (2014-12-02 10:03:39)

Offline

 

#100 2014-12-02 09:54:19

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

All in all, in my opinion, the only place where you have to "bridge" is from M1-M2 if you want to go beyond approximately C5 (males).

I guess what I'm trying to clarify is where "bridging" is a necessity and not simply a preference?

Last edited by Martin H (2014-12-02 10:02:50)

Offline

 
OTHER TMV WEB SITES: TMV RECOMMENDS: TMV RECOMMENDS: TMV RECOMMENDS:

Adverts

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB
Hosted by PunBB-Hosting