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#1 2013-10-11 14:35:44

dk1021
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 21
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Should I buy the KTVA videos?

So today, I got an email saying that KTVA has released a mini version of his full out How to Sing Better than Anyone Else program. It's not terribly expensive at 70 bucks, but it's still not cheap :P

I've been trying to learn how to sing for like 2 years now and haven't made that much progress sadly (I've been mostly just reading up and watching youtube videos, but still no progress).

So I'm wondering if these videos have at least the gist of all the stuff that the big videos have, and if so, should I purchase it?

Here's the link btw: http://kentamplinvocalacademy.com/mini/

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2013-10-11 14:35:44

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#2 2013-10-11 18:35:24

VIDEOHERE
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

why don't you simply ask ken?

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#3 2013-10-11 19:07:46

dk1021
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-08-06
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

VIDEOHERE wrote:

why don't you simply ask ken?

How exactly :P?

Last edited by dk1021 (2013-10-11 19:25:18)

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#4 2013-10-11 19:11:30

MDEW
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Registered: 2012-06-24
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Reply to the email telling about the mini program.   he also gives the email address for questions.


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

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#5 2013-10-11 19:25:05

dk1021
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Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 21
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

MDEW wrote:

Reply to the email telling about the mini program.   he also gives the email address for questions.

Gotcha, will do.

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#6 2013-10-11 21:50:29

Blameitonthevodka
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Ken will clearly say yes to buying it as he is bias in this situation

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#7 2013-10-11 23:53:12

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

$70 for some vids you can repeat as often as necessary. $50 to $70 per hour for each lessons with someone who is local.

I say, if Ken's words and examples mean something to you, explore that avenue. I know you save money for other things in your life. If you feel these videos will be crucial to your singing development, then get them. As for Ken being biased toward a student buying the system, well, he is the one offering it. I don't call that bias. I call it doing his job. His job is producing content for a singer training system. He needs some kind of compensation for that work and expense. Ain't no such thing as a free lunch.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#8 2013-10-12 01:39:08

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Awesome post, Phil. Kind of in line with my questions about being able to afford a computer and internet access, or a mobile phone plan with internet.

Let's talk about my bills. House under lien (to pay off back taxes. Before December 2010, the recession kept me unemployed more often than not.) Insurance for a 3 bedroom house in a .25 acre lot and two cars. Gas for cars. Natural gas bill for the house. Electric bill for the house (with central a/c, a must-have in Texas.) Car payments. Food on the table, clothes on my hide. Credit card bill that is in default. Dental bills in default. The house insurance is about $1k per year. Two cars is $200 a month. During the summer, electric is about $300 a month. Credit card bill is maxed at 10k. House lien is 20k on a 5 year note at 19 %. Average about 200 a week in food and assorted stuff. House nat gas is about 35 a month during summer, more during the winter (gas central heat.) Home phone and internet, just under 100. Cell phone for two phones, 140 a month.

And, starting 01-01-2014, Pres. Obama is going to require me to buy his idea of a health insurance. If I don't, he will assess a penalty of not less than 1 percent of my gross, in addition to taxing me more than I am already paying in order to fund the "subsidy" that some will qualify for by definition of his plan. And, in addition, what ever plan I buy will be more expensive because I have to pay for newborn coverage and maternity leave coverage even though my wife is past menopause and can no longer conceive a child.

So, $70 dollars from a really good coach does not seem like all that much.

If you, in general, have the $70 available and think this dvd set will help you, then get it. Is there a guarantee that it will make you a rock star? That is between you and the author of the system.

Last edited by ronws (2013-10-12 01:40:11)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#9 2013-10-12 01:55:15

dk1021
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Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 21
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

I'm just a poor ole college student :P

This is what the lady who works for Ken told me

"he mini covers basic things like pitch, support, initial vowel placement and modifications, intro to building the bridge (this is only an intro and building the bridge has quite a progression to do it correctly so it obviously can't be covered in s "starter" course. There are no head voice workouts in this edition, only in the full course), posture, vibrato basics, blending etc.

The full course covers a "span" of all the progressions that need to happen, in order (sequence) over time to develop these things correctly.

In addition,  the full course even includes gobs of hours of actual student training in various stages."

I have kind of mixed feelings about the description of it.

I'm thinking about just saving up cash until like March and then ponying up to buy 4 Pillars

Last edited by dk1021 (2013-10-12 01:55:30)

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#10 2013-10-12 02:05:04

ronws
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Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

dk1021 wrote:

I'm thinking about just saving up cash until like March and then ponying up to buy 4 Pillars

And I could also advocate that, for you and not win myself "forum" points, either. Of the systems out there, I most identify with 4 Pillars. It matches what I have learned from classical technique. For a very competitive price in the market, you get the whole taco. Every scale you could possibly think of, every bend of vocalise you could ever want. I still am in love with Robert's "Staley." Robert has the best flv on breath management that I have seen. He physically shows you what should be happening. And just listen to him. Listening to what he does with vowel sound matches a thousand words of writing.

And I like Robert's approach to teaching of singing. He is not teaching you to sound like some other singer. He is teaching you to be as awesome a singer as any that you admire. For you deserve to be among the pantheon of great singers.

Some other systems, you have to buy different "levels", even as they may derail against systems that sell it piece-meal, or section at a time. As for "bridge early" or "bridge late," 4 Pillars now does both, and it really depends on the genre you are singing.

Also, don't be afraid to reach out to Robert. He can help you. But, if all else fails, certainly save March as your target date. Why? Because having a plan is better than no plan. And dedication to craft makes you a winner, no matter how long it takes.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#11 2013-10-12 02:13:02

ronws
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Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Phil Moufarrege wrote:

I just don't want you to do what I did and spend years pissing away time because I didn't want to invest money.  and I know for a fact that course is the real deal.  but let me stress why coaches are always number 1 to programs...  even with the best course, there is no way to assure that you are INTERPRETING it correctly. 

stay in touch, thanks

True that, nothing like getting it straight from the horse's mouth, to borrow a local expression.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#12 2013-10-12 02:33:07

FelipeCarvalho
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From: Brasil
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Yes.
And look for a thread named: Just do it.

GL.

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#13 2013-10-12 02:57:27

dk1021
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 21
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Phil Moufarrege wrote:

dk1021 wrote:

I'm just a poor ole college student :P

This is what the lady who works for Ken told me

"he mini covers basic things like pitch, support, initial vowel placement and modifications, intro to building the bridge (this is only an intro and building the bridge has quite a progression to do it correctly so it obviously can't be covered in s "starter" course. There are no head voice workouts in this edition, only in the full course), posture, vibrato basics, blending etc.

The full course covers a "span" of all the progressions that need to happen, in order (sequence) over time to develop these things correctly.

In addition,  the full course even includes gobs of hours of actual student training in various stages."

I have kind of mixed feelings about the description of it.

Based on what though?  I think you are underestimating where it says "basic things like pitch, support, initial vowel placement and modifications, intro to building the bridge"  she is not doing Ken a service. most of those "basic things" many people have no grip on at all. in fact most people don't!!  most "youtube hunters" think they know those things.  I bet you really don't.  Everyone I teach thinks they know those things and they don't.  I thought I knew those things.  I dind't.  THOSE THINGS ARE THE MEAT AND POTATOES!!!  the stuff that isn't included is stuff you don't need to worry about for at least 6 months if you get that program.  and when she says no headvoice workouts she's talking to the ADVANCED headvoice stuff.  that program will have headvoice stuff in it but he also teaches advanced stuff that he doesn't want to throw at you too soon because it will atrophy the chest range that he wants you to build.

almost all singing problems stem from a lack of those fundamentals.  for $70 to learn those things without BS in a straight forward manner is a damn good deal.   i never got his mini program but I got his full program years ago.

I would recommend you fork out the $300 for the full course though. because the mini course will eventually have you going to the full course so just get everything instead.  but if you think $70 is expensive then............

but hey, you have to follow your heart so do that.  I'm sure you'll be fine in the end.  I just don't want you to do what I did and spend years pissing away time because I didn't want to invest money.  and I know for a fact that course is the real deal.  but let me stress why coaches are always number 1 to programs...  even with the best course, there is no way to assure that you are INTERPRETING it correctly. 

stay in touch, thanks

I totally agree with you, I probably don't have a good grasp of any of the basic stuff.

But financially speaking, I think it'd be much more prudent to save up for Pillars. My reasoning is that the mini program is probably about 24% of the whole KTVA course (70/300), and presuming that Pillars and KTVA is about equal (for argument's sake), it's basically between paying 120 vs 230 for the rest of that 76%. Personally,  I think it would be better if I waited better and got the full shbang for the long term. But that's just me.

Thank you for your input on this

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#14 2013-10-12 09:35:46

Gina Ellen Vocalist
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Registered: 2012-01-18
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

I got an interest free credit card to pay for pillars and KTVA, then made sure I payed it off. If your in a position to do this, do it. Like any craft, you have to spend the money. I learned alot from both, but if you are a beginner, stick with one method


Professional vocalist in Devon, England. Here's the link to my website: professional vocalist in Devon
My soundcloud

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#15 2013-10-12 15:48:23

Sun
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Registered: 2012-01-05
Posts: 288
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

If you are struggling with singing from learning from programs, I would suggest personal lessons before programs.

It's much better to have someone else point out errors because a lot of the time in singing you can have limiting beliefs about what you are capable or about what things should feel like.

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#16 2013-10-15 23:12:58

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

dk1021 wrote:

So today, I got an email saying that KTVA has released a mini version of his full out How to Sing Better than Anyone Else program. It's not terribly expensive at 70 bucks, but it's still not cheap :P

I've been trying to learn how to sing for like 2 years now and haven't made that much progress sadly (I've been mostly just reading up and watching youtube videos, but still no progress).

So I'm wondering if these videos have at least the gist of all the stuff that the big videos have, and if so, should I purchase it?

Here's the link btw: http://kentamplinvocalacademy.com/mini/

Hello "dk"... I just barely got wind of this chain discussion.

Ken is a great teacher, I appreciate his work. On the other hand, Ron put a recommendation in for my product, "The Four Pillars of Singing".  I would like to make sure that you get a full understanding of what TVS is and what our product is all about. Below is a link that will take you to the product page on my shopping cart... I want you to read the specifications of what you get when you invest your time and hard earned money into a vocal training program. Be sure to view the video on the page and read the 5-Star reviews, just scroll to the bottom of the page.

http://www.thevocaliststudiostore.com/T … _p_27.html

As an added incentive, because I would very much like the opportunity to be your coach and help you, Im going to offer you an additional FREE access to the new, cool "The Four Pillars of Singing - Online & Mobile" offering... now you can have the entire TVS training program on your smart phone or tablet, as well as computer. This is really cool!

http://tinyurl.com/TheFourPillarsofSingingMobile


I don't know if Ken will get back to you or not... but I can guarantee you, I will. Just remind me who you are and let me know your the guy from the TMV World forum that was considering KTVA or TVS... Ill make sure you are taken care of and get the best value for your hard earned money and energy.  And feel free to reach out to me personally if you like and we can further discuss.

In regards to the other posts... I think Phil makes a really good point. After 2 years, if your not getting the results you want.. and someone is offering you a special deal, be it $70 for some "teaser" content that leaves you needing to purchase the bigger package, or a discount on a complete program... you need to do it. Your voice is worth more then the cost you will incur purchasing either mine or Ken's product. Don't make your voice and dream wait over a handful bills if you don't have to. Don't be cheap about your voice training... thats my sage advise. Phil is dead on about that.

I hope this helps...

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#17 2013-10-16 01:52:13

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Yeah, not wanting to see this turn into a war of the systems but it sounds like the original poster has determined to to save for 4 Pillars. That's a good thing and nothing meant bad for any other systems represented here.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#18 2013-10-16 02:26:43

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
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Posts: 3087
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Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

I don't see this as a "war of systems" at all?  There is no commentary that strongly supports or denies either program, other then my own efforts to help this poster. I stated clearly that I appreciate the work Ken does and I agree, his program is good and his talent as a singer is great. At the same time, I make no apologies for jumping on here and going the extra mile to provide customer service for my potential client... Ken is welcome to do the same if he wants to.

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#19 2013-10-16 16:20:52

VIDEOHERE
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

free enterprise.

but you still have to put in the work.......

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#20 2013-10-16 16:38:38

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
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Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

... and be responsive to customers and give a service that is outstanding... I find that the last 10 yards often is... ".... I chose to work with you because you were the only coach that bothered to respond to my email and took some interests in me...".

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#21 2013-10-16 23:58:01

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

I apologize for writing "war of systems."


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#22 2014-09-02 02:00:38

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Make sure you review these documents before you make any decision on what program to purchase. There are several good programs, I agree. I want members of this forum to know everything they need to know about "The Four Pillars of Singing" first hand, get the facts... I recommend you start with the Reviews, Table of Contents and then go to the web site to read the specifications and view the video.


http://tinyurl.com/The4PillarsReviews

http://tinyurl.com/4PillarsTableofContents

http://tinyurl.com/The4PillarsOfSinging

http://tinyurl.com/TVSonYouTube

http://tinyurl.com/The4PillarsTrainingRoutines

http://tinyurl.com/TVSTrainingWorkFlows

http://tinyurl.com/TVSMethod

http://tinyurl.com/The4PillarsUpdate


Let me know if you have any questions... send me an email.

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#23 2014-09-02 08:17:26

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

dk1021 wrote:

It's not terribly expensive at 70 bucks, but it's still not cheap :P

I'll write what I wrote in a finnish vocal/instrument/musicianship forum:

I'll try and set you into perspective. Once these vocal coaches (Lunte, Tamplin, Manning, etc.) realise that what they're putting out for less than the cost of a couple of one-on-ones is a steal no matter how you look at it us vocal technique hobbyists will be f*ed.

It is my honest opinion that even if they charged 500-1000usd it still would be pretty cheap in regards to what you're actually getting for the money. For one, you're getting an infinite amount of vocal lessons, and every program out there has something for everyone.

So while they're cheap, you might as well do the pokémon, but to start out I'd recommend (even without actually ever having bought it or used it) the 4 pillars, just because of the amount of free technique tips and videos Lunte's put up, and their contents.

EDIT: and before I'm "set straight" I'll clarify that I have no doubt the authors of these programs understand pricing and marketing, which is specifically why the programs aren't more expensive. They'd be too expensive for the largest target group for the product. The first phrase was more for shock value.

Last edited by Khassera (2014-09-02 08:38:45)


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#24 2014-09-02 09:27:20

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Thanks for your input Khassera,... I have to urge people, when considering any of these good programs, stop shopping for price and start shopping for value. Value is determined by what you get for your investment; how much content, do you get a user interface or not? do you get videos and audios, do you get the author demonstrating or not, do you get guide files, do you get notation, do you get training work flows, do you get training routines or is it only a book, what really does the system cover and can you know that before you purchase, do you get the latest techniques; vowel modification, vocal modes, onsets, work flows, etc, is the program mobile capable, and on and on... you can know the answer to all of these questions regarding "The Four Pillars of Singing" and the answer is yes to al of it... what kind of customer service do you get?

Make sure you review these documents before you make any decision on what program to purchase. There are several good programs, I agree. I want members of this forum to know everything they need to know about "The Four Pillars of Singing" first hand, get the facts... I recommend you start with the Reviews, Table of Contents and then go to the web site to read the specifications and view the video.


http://tinyurl.com/The4PillarsReviews

http://tinyurl.com/4PillarsTableofContents

http://tinyurl.com/The4PillarsOfSinging

http://tinyurl.com/TVSonYouTube

http://tinyurl.com/The4PillarsTrainingRoutines

http://tinyurl.com/TVSTrainingWorkFlows

http://tinyurl.com/TVSMethod

http://tinyurl.com/The4PillarsUpdate

Let me know if you have any questions... send me an email.

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#25 2014-09-02 09:53:44

JohnnyL
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-04-26
Posts: 57
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

This is an old thread... I don't know if the original poster would gain anything from the comments here.

I bought two books (not programs - I study with a teacher so the books were intended to be complementary and just a way to get in the right mindset) and I must say that - there are good tips one can get from teachers, books, forums (and most likely programs) but there are no short-cuts. A practice regime, involving exercises and actual singing will give you gradual results. It's a little like a gym - things that seemed impossible become attainable and gradually easier and more stable.

Teachers can comment on how you do the basics (I suppose that a good program will also be thorough about how everything should work together on exercises). These 'comments' are a big issue - it's good to know you're practising correctly...

No short-cuts though.

Last edited by JohnnyL (2014-09-02 12:17:34)

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#26 2014-09-06 20:04:47

dk1021
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 21
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Hey yall. Was surprised to see this thread bumped haha, but I did decide to invest in 4 pillars a little while ago and have been steadily working at it

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#27 2014-09-06 22:58:06

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

dk1021 wrote:

Hey yall. Was surprised to see this thread bumped haha, but I did decide to invest in 4 pillars a little while ago and have been steadily working at it

Cool!  Whats your name?  Send me an email , give me an update... I want to hear how your doing!  Send me a private email.


Learn More About the TVS Vocal Training Program:
"The Four Pillars of Singing”


Click Links Below:
http://tinyurl.com/The4PillarsReviews
http://tinyurl.com/4PillarsTableofContents
http://tinyurl.com/The4PillarsOfSinging

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#28 2014-11-25 16:06:32

baekjiwon
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-25
Posts: 2
Reputation :   

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Anyone who is thinking about buying KTVA, please BE AWARE of the following:
I posted a question regarding the comparison of KTVA and Four Pillars of Singing on KTVA forum. Member highmtn (who is a moderator on KTVA forum) immediately deleted my question and BANNED me completely from the KTVA forum, saying that it is forbidden to compare KTVA to other courses. I only asked if any KTVA members, who had experience with the Four Pillars of Singing, could provide a detailed comparison of the two programs, beyond the fact that Tamplin encourages late bridging while Lunte advocates early bridging. I did NOT say anything that could imply that people should buy Four Pillars of Singing instead of KTVA, I only asked for an objective comparison. BEWARE! KTVA FORUM MODERATOR DELETES ANYTHING OTHER THAN POSITIVE REVIEWS (INCLUDING QUESTIONS FOR OBJECTIVE COMPARISON OF KTVA TO OTHER COURSES). At least, this was my experience with them. In fact, I saw people on different sites complaining that after they purchased KTVA and then posted on the KTVA forum something which was not 100% positive opinion, their comments were immediately deleted. BEWARE!

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#29 2014-11-25 16:54:00

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Yes, from what I hear, only cheerleaders allowed... and not even a HINT of discussion regarding anyone else 's products or techniques... and apparently, no public comments about, "I'm not getting it, I need help" as well... that's also off limits apparently.  He also deletes any comments on his Facebook and YouTube from any of his colleagues, even if its a compliment?

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#30 2014-11-25 16:56:38

Owen Korzec
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Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

baekjiwon, ktva has never claimed to be an open forum, no? Although i do think your particular example is one of the most excessively extreme I've heard of, sadly I have seen and heard of similar sneaky moderation on a supposedly open vocal forum.

I think the top competitors of any business will always do this stuff, its a business necessity. Rare to find anything truly open, even on youtube channels you get blocked commenters, turning off like functions, etc. But some of my favorite vocal coaches all do this so they should not be judged by it, at the end of the day if the teaching works, it works - lets not get caught up on personal business practices.

Last edited by Owen Korzec (2014-11-25 16:59:15)

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#31 2014-11-25 16:58:40

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
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Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

BTW... Khassera, hows it going?

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#32 2014-11-25 18:50:22

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Owen Korzec wrote:

baekjiwon, ktva has never claimed to be an open forum, no? Although i do think your particular example is one of the most excessively extreme I've heard of, sadly I have seen and heard of similar sneaky moderation on a supposedly open vocal forum.

I think the top competitors of any business will always do this stuff, its a business necessity. Rare to find anything truly open, even on youtube channels you get blocked commenters, turning off like functions, etc. But some of my favorite vocal coaches all do this so they should not be judged by it, at the end of the day if the teaching works, it works - lets not get caught up on personal business practices.

Owen... there is no way you can compare my concerns you are hinting at, to the story that this member just shared. Its concerning when we consider the facts... for about two years... you have pretty much been able to talk about any techniques and programs and teachers you want to on this forum. You are in fact, still here, because you enjoy that openness. The very post above I am quoting, is a manifestation of the "openness" on this forum that you enjoy. Its like people in Ferguson that protest to be heard and have their rights recognized, by burning down private property and throwing rocks at innocent people. Don't go there... In regards to this forum and the services I have given to you during our association and work together as my student, you hardly have anything to complain about.

To clarify, if someone jumps on here and roasts me... in regards to something that is very misinformed or isn't even a client, Ill snuff it... you better believe it.  Also consider, I don't know who is posting this stuff? There are underhanded tactics out there that some people resort to... any "agent" of another program or even the other teacher themselves, can jump on here with alias emails and profile names and exact their malicious agenda...  It has happened before.

Having said that, which is completely reasonable, my policy on this is mostly due to just the philosophical principle of the thing...  Im not going to allow an unmertied roasting of my business by the same person I am offering a free and gratuitous service to.... anymore then I'm going to allow thieves to walk into my front door and steel my possessions. Members are guests here and I think a certain level of consideration should be at hand for the host that is being hospitable. Come in and enjoy yourself, but no, don't shit on my living room floor... No voice coach would.

But these examples are not really what this member is describing is it? Moderating a forum is "business as usual", its not the same as what he described. The "openness" on this forum is FAR, FAR more then what any of my colleagues are allowing. So give me some credit ... Or keep enjoying the service and don't... I'm still not going to lock out ... so there, ponder the irony of the benevolence that I bestow upon thee... and go forth to help make the world a better place... ;)

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#33 2014-11-25 19:48:02

rockthestagenyc
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From: New York City
Registered: 2009-12-06
Posts: 29
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

OK here's the truth.

ANY teacher that locks you out of a forum for asking a question or not writing "great job you're awesome" is not a teacher in my opinion. They are weak and cannot own their positions.

ANY teacher that tries to claim that ONLY THEY can teach you how to sing is not a teacher in my opinion. Can anyone afford to be so arrogant?

ANY teacher that claims that another well known singing method "doesn't work" (even thought its well known to work) isn't a teacher in my opinion. They are myopic and close minded.

ANY teacher who puts themselves into the public eye and then does little or no interaction with the public, is not a teacher in my opinion. Anyone who posts videos to YouTube/Vimeo and they never answer anyone's questions or only answer with a 5 word reply, or outright ban anyone for asking a question or questioning the validity of the program - is not a teacher in my opinion.

When someone, who touts themselves as so skilled or who has taught such famous people, posts videos that give away nothing, only to tell you when you ask a technique question, "if you really want to learn, pay me". They are not teacher in my opinion, but merely "bait & switch" frauds.

Any teacher that repeatedly posts "how to sing like..." videos and then says absolutely NOTHING about how to sing like those artists is not a teacher in my opinion but a grandstander intent only on showcasing themselves.

Any teacher who says "it's not about me" and then proceeds to list all their accomplishments is not a teacher in my opinion but an unbridled narcissist.

When you see a 3 minute YT video on "head voice" and it has 300,000+ views - be suspicious. The chances that a 3minute video, with little or no real information in it, went viral are slim to none. When you see that on a lot of their videos - be VERY suspicious. These are shysters buying views from fake YT view services or they pay people to spam forums and other YT channels to earn views.

There are several well known singing "coaches/teachers" on YouTube who are guilty of all or most of these points. Then there are the good guys who don't do any of the above.

I have been accused of being a "basher" or "trasher" because I say these things about other coaches. I see it as exposing the liars, frauds, snake oil salesmen of our business.  The public can be very uneducated about vocal training, and unfortunately there are lots of people out there looking to take advantage of that. I see nothing wrong with pointing that out for the public.

An educated consumer is our best customer.

Kevin Richards
http://www.rpmvocalstudio.com

Last edited by rockthestagenyc (2014-11-25 19:50:58)


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Richards
Rock the Stage NYC
http://www.rockthestagenyc.com
http://www.youtube.com/RocktheStageNYC

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#34 2014-11-25 23:57:26

Musicdude818
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Registered: 2014-11-25
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

I'm gonna keep this very simple and truthful. I've been studying voice for for 6 years and I am now 25, I am songwriter before anything and voice is just something I'm trying to learn so that I can demo out my songs to artists in my own voice, since they are my songs. I've been through the ringer with coaches and I started ken tamplin last June with the highest of hopes, I bought his program and emailed him a buncha times to introduce myself and he never replied, until I bought a 300 dollar Skype lesson that is...he's a nice guy but I didn't feel like the relationship was genuine. IM NOT PUTTING DOWN HIM HIS COURSE OR HIS STUDENTS because he has some people that swear by it, but his program didn't click with me and actually made my voice worse. Robert Lunte will be taking over my voice as of next week and I'm very excited. Final straw was the other day, I was very hurt when I found out I was banned from ken tamplins forum TWICE (i made another account to see whats up) even after we had just had a short skype session courtesy of him. I was so confused because all my post said was "I just read an article about rapper drake and his 4 year journey with voice coach Dionne osbourne, he started it at 24, which is the same age i started Kens program, so I'm looking forward to the same journey with ken, his program takes a lot of work and is tough for me so far but I'm ready" .... That's what I said, and then I was blocked and he hasn't answered any Skype messages, emails or anything. I felt like I wasted 6 months of my time and I'm sure if he read this he'd chew me out big time. There's a lot I won't mention either because I'm really not trying to bad mouth anyone. But how can someone expect me not to be upset after wasting time and money to be blocked, ignored and have my voice worsened. Not every voice coach works for everybody, Mark Baxter actually gave me the coolest answer that voice coaches are like religions, and they all have different approaches, you just have to find one that clicks for you. I'm excited to work with Robert, him and I both know we have a lot of fixing to do lol.

ALSO I remember that post from last week that your talking about baekjiwom, I read it and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. We were banned within the same two days lol.

Last edited by Musicdude818 (2014-11-26 00:01:14)

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#35 2014-11-26 01:10:23

Robert Lunte
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Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

ouch... :/    The only thing I feel compelled to share to this is...  I don't care if its Jesus Christ, there is no voice lesson in the world that is worth $300/Hr. That is my qualified opinion on the matter.  I hate to lessen the value of my own profession but, there simply is not enough time in an hour to get the value of return on $300, regardless if your making amazing leaps forward by the second... especially if your not provided with a virtual HUB that archives observation notes, homework and recorded files of your lessons so you can preserve your investment and listen and read later. I

I have heard of such fees. Seth Riggs charges $300/Hr. I believe, if not more. GMAB, $200/Hr in cities like NY and LA or Nashville, but $300/Hr., with all due respect, is simply rapacious.

On the other hand, hats off to anyone that can succeed in motivating others to actually pay it. No foul for trying and succeeding at it if you dare to ask for it... Good for Ken!

So as to not make this appear to be just a roast on my colleague I have to say...

It was nice of Ken to give you a free lesson, it sounds like he was trying to help you. But as we all know, not every program or approach works for everyone. We have noted that on this forum time and time again... If I may, Ken's approach to pulling modal/M1 voice from the "bottom-up" is valid. It does work, and I agree with Ken's point that if you don't work the musculature in this way sometimes in addition to lighter mass approaches, you may never get the kind of modal voice "belts" that many of us seek to have. But if there is a concern here, it would be, in my opinion... that not everyone can dive in as a beginner and pull chest and make it work. This approach is really best suited for people that already have experience and a strong intrinsic musculature to sustain it. Regarding Ken, he is a phenomenal singer and a good coach, one of the best, but what isn't clear to consumers is that... there are a LOT of people that will NEVER be able to do what Ken does. In fact, very few can. For example, someone like Steve Perry or Bruno Mars who have lighter mass configurations, could never sing the way Ken does. Their instruments are just not built that way... so there are other ways to use your voice and still sound great, it doesn't always have to be this massive modal pull. Blessings to anyone that can do it, but most just can't, especially beginners. If you don't FIRST have a good command and control of your glottal compression, and acute understanding of vowels and formant shifting, respiration and larynx dampening, ... all your going to do is dig yourself into a deeper frustration. If some people manage to do it, but another person can't, its not Ken's fault... it could be that this approach just doesn't work for them and never will... Apart from the fact that Ken has been doing this for over 30 years and has intrinsic musculature that is rare. Even if you can do it, 90%+ of all people are still not going to sound like Ken!

Most people need to start first by understanding how to configure good compression, good larynx positioning and understand vowels among other things, including get a lot of experience. In my program, "The Four Pillars of Singing", I have all the heavier mass, "chest pulling" workouts in the program if people want to try it.. we have four onsets that work this kind of musculature and we do all the "Ah" vowel work you can possibly ask for, mapped out into routines and training formulas. Its all there... There is no key points that can be found in Ken's program or CVI, or Estill or any others that can't be found in "The Four Pillars of Singing". If its a good, valid idea, I have incorporated into the TVS program. That has been a major objective of mine in producing the system, and its why my program keeps getting updated... lots of good ideas out there, inspired by my colleagues as well as original TVS techniques.... but there are also routines that start off with less demand on the musculature for beginners or those with lighter musculature. To me, modal/M1 voice chest pulling or "call" register work as some people call it, is something you have to work up to.  That is the point I was trying to make when I produced this video....

See time stamp, 3:52 & 7:25.

Bridging Late vs Bridging Early:



Well, Ill help you out bud... and Im not going to ask for $300/Hr....  We'll start by listening to what your doing and get you into a configuration that will be a foundation for better things to come... Crawl, Walk, Run will be our approach... don't stress out I got you covered.

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#36 2014-11-26 02:34:14

Musicdude818
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Registered: 2014-11-25
Posts: 2
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

I can't even afford that I literally suffered to pay for that lesson, which is why it was also insulting to be banned from his forum lol. I just really wanted to see if I was doing the course right. Spending it really did hurt me. But again, nothing against ken. Him and I just weren't a match.

Last edited by Musicdude818 (2014-11-26 02:35:00)

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#37 2014-11-26 02:51:22

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Well, ... if you work with me, you have been with two of the best guys in the world... let me have a crack at it. I heard your files as you know and to me, it seems pretty clear what we need to do... Your larynx is all messed up, you need more compression and Im not sure you are really feeling any good resonance you can work with... as far as the samples you sent me... Just get on board with TVS and let me get at 'cha... you'll be fine, I promise, I know where to start with you.  You will get results quickly, but we are going to come at it from a whole different approach. We have some fundamentals to work on first... you need a good basic configuration established first, before we do anything else. Don't be surprised if it comes quickly for you after that. Once the foundation is built, you body will know what to do and you will take off finally... trust me.

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#38 2014-11-26 05:52:51

m.i.r.
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Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

It is obvious ken has stood the test of time vocally. Just blows me away that he has though. Seeing how much he tenses up and squeezes up high, I mean just look at how much neck muscle he uses. Just makes me worried for his students, his folds have held up apparently. But can his students?

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#39 2014-11-26 13:34:42

Robert Lunte
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Posts: 3087
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

m.i.r. wrote:

It is obvious ken has stood the test of time vocally. Just blows me away that he has though. Seeing how much he tenses up and squeezes up high, I mean just look at how much neck muscle he uses. Just makes me worried for his students, his folds have held up apparently. But can his students?

Precisely... The people that Ken and I are serving ... The vast majority of them will never be able to do what Ken does with his voice. and it's fair to say, would you want to anyways? There is a lot of pushing and squeezing going on there. To be sure, most students are just going to choke up and run straight into a constricted mess.

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#40 2014-11-26 19:21:49

Validar
TMV Forum Member
From: Orlando, Florida.
Registered: 2011-01-13
Posts: 476
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Robert Lunte wrote:

I have heard of such fees. Seth Riggs charges $300/Hr. I believe, if not more. GMAB, $200/Hr in cities like NY and LA or Nashville, but $300/Hr., with all due respect, is simply rapacious.

I have to agree. $300.00 an hour is incredibly steep, in my opinion, and I believe potential students need to understand forking over that kind of money isn't a MUST for achieving results. It can be done and does happen for considerably less.

As for the "openness" of this forum, after seeing many other forums that didn't allow the mere mention of another instructor or their programs, I was rather shocked at just how much freedom was given here when I first joined.


I've never been skydiving, but I've zoomed in on Google Earth really, really fast.

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#41 2014-11-26 20:40:50

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
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Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

exactly... I appreciate your willingness to stand up for what is right and appreciate what we are doing here at TMV World Forum.

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#42 2014-11-27 00:43:21

m.i.r.
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Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

The thing that gets me. If you listen to that vid of the 15 year old singing faithfully. He sounds good dont get me wrong, not bashing him. But you can hear a mini tamplin in him, the pressed tones above a g, the over active neck muscles,denying the head voice and so on. I really dont think he is letting him release his true tone. I bet he would have an amazing free high tenor voice. I just always thought a teachers job was to help the person come into his own voice. Not try to build little copies of ones self. It doesnt take a master teacher to know what will happen a high tenor straining to  carrying the weight of a baritone all through the range.

And yes I know right know he is 15 and true timber really cant be determined yet, but right now he sounds like a high tenor to me.

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#43 2014-11-27 01:50:41

Robert Lunte
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Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Point taken m.i.r.... what I take from that is... on one hand, I suppose its impressive for the 15 year old to show his chops, but on the other hand, it a 15 year old singing Journey... which may arguably be easier for a 15 year old. Its kind of a stunt in my view.

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#44 2014-11-29 09:02:49

Owen Korzec
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Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

m.i.r. I've noticed myself and others just tend to imitate their vocal coaches without even thinking about it, for better of for worse, and no vocal coach is going to be perfect. So that could explain the Ken-isms of his singing that may be interfering with his potential. I'd imagine that if once he gets past the years of lessons with the main teacher phase (most of us have been there and understand how important it is) and gets out in the real world filled with all kinds of band member singers, other coaches, favorite singers he looks up to, he will become more true to himself over time.

I have found this myself whenever I take a break from coaching nowadays and just SING - more of the "Owen" comes out. But I still have more technique work to do so I keep going back to learning from a coach. It's a balancing act.

I took a quick listen and yea the kid is pressing a little bit at parts, as Ken would stylistically. But if you've seen videos like Ken singing like Michael Jackson, that one we hear a lot of crystal clean stuff. Ken can do it, he just chooses not to. Mind you, Ken is how old? He has a roughness to his voice when he sings full voice. But for instance Seth Riggs has a roughness to all of his voice. Age is a thing, what can I say?

As for Ryan (15 year old singing faithfully) I have no way of knowing whether he's doing the pressing for style or if it's a technical weakness. If I recall correctly he was only a year or so under Ken's teaching for that video (and this was before Ken charged so much) which, when learning the full voice stuff Ken teaches - yeah with only that much training you're going to risk pressing on a couple phrases a song maybe. But there are a few he nails cleanly and if you look at his neck it's relaxed as hell, particularly the stuff way up in the 5th octave.

I want to make a quick point - if you listen to the intensity of singing that Ken teaches, and how his students sing - and you go listen to famous male singers in contemporary music - it is very similar. Ken's work is bit on the heavy/distorted side, but you can hear it's built off the same technical foundation that clean medium weight full voice contemporary singing uses. The idea of staying in your full voice and shifting resonance only, and delaying the blending to a thinner sound as high as possible.

So I think it's important to give it to Ken on that - he is keeping up with the times and the expectations in this industry - the way a great number of rock and pop singers have been singing for the past 50 years, has been very much similar to what Ken teaches.

Some coaches despite that idea of trying to just sound like everyone else, but it's the same reason all the modern coaches here are teaching distortion - it's so popular and in demand, people will sing that way anyways, so teachers might as well go and advocate practicing creating those sounds in a healthier manner.

I just notice a lot of coaches still teach a lighter, earlier-mixed sound that is just as technically correct but it is simply not the most in-demand sound in our culture. It's a different foundation that will give you a similar mock-effect to popular singers, but it won't naturally grow into the heavy sounds Ken and his students are able to make - which in my experience, seem to be something you can train to back off from over time indefinitely as skill improves - without having to leave the foundation or change anything. You start big and natural but make sure your range doesn't get stuck. And then you get better and better at relaxing into it and reducing volume and weight etc. so that the lower dynamics appear in a connected form.

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#45 2014-11-29 09:15:40

Owen Korzec
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Agreed with Rob on the 15 year old thing though.

My general rule of thumb is if there is no before or after then the coach is working with someone who came in with talent and the coach just refined it.

Nothing against coaching refining talent, but a lot of singers are looking for a full transformation. I don't see that much from Ken but, hey, how many people would pay $300 for a lesson with him without getting their basics down first? His pricing attracts what it attracts...

Last edited by Owen Korzec (2014-11-29 09:15:56)

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#46 2014-11-29 14:17:41

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
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Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Nice balanced and objective post Owen. I appreciate that you don't go on tirades and take things personally.

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#47 2014-11-29 22:55:06

Asim
TMV Forum Member
From: Long Island
Registered: 2011-07-26
Posts: 32
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

I seem to be the only one here who took multiple $300 lessons with Ken. I bought 4 at $1100 about 2 years ago. I was under the incredibly naive impression (which I sort of inherited from one of his videos) that these lessons would be a panacea for all my vocal problems and get me through all of his volumes. I know we're all pretty disillusioned with the reality of voice-building, so it's needless to say that that promise wasn't really true. Having trained with several coaches, you really do have to take at least several months of lessons with someone to get anywhere - at least at the intermediate level. Fortunately, there are many more coaches around now than there were when I bought those exorbitant lessons.

Last edited by Asim (2014-11-29 22:58:24)

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#48 2014-11-30 01:43:52

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Asim,

Yes, it takes a LOT of work... especially if you want to sing with belts. There is a lot of strengthening and coordination you have to stay on top of and you need to be very consistent with it as well.

For most people, you can see significant gains in 90 days... then there is a longer path to get that last 20% of stability ... once you have the musculature built, you then need to work on articulating lyrics in these more challenging positions... and getting real good at formant tuning.

The more I do this... and Ive been doing this a long time, I appreciate how much resistance training you have to engage in to truly need to engage in to make it work fantastic for you.

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#49 2014-11-30 21:09:48

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

The thing is singing is all basics. You don't learn some basics and then some advanced exercises. You learn the principles and basics then get more skilled at range,vibrato, agility, pitch, etc.  it's not like there is a whole new set of exercises,  it's just expanding them. So if you are thinking you are gonna get more exercises and vocal "secrets" you are in for a very expensive "lesson learned".


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#50 2014-11-30 22:25:46

Clevertrevor76
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-28
Posts: 11
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Re: Should I buy the KTVA videos?

Daniel, you're an amazing singer dude. I checked out some of your YouTube stuff/lessons. Very down to earth, simple effective explanations and professional singer. I'm currently a KTVA member and investing my time in that program but from what I've seen, your lessons/voice/information has been very comparable/outstanding dude. If I was to start taking lessons, you'd be the guy I'd go to.

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