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#1 2011-11-23 10:49:56

Nathan
TMV Forum Member
From: London, UK.
Registered: 2010-08-11
Posts: 135
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Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

So I know we all have our preference when it comes to singing methodology. Some use SLS, CVT, TVS, RYV etc. The problem is that all of these 3 lettered abbreviations we swear by have very differents methods and opinions on, often, the same area. Rarely do you find that they all unanimously agree on any particular thing. I've been encountering this problem all over the place whilst at music school. Different teachers, following different methods, will teach different things to the same students, which leaves us all dazed and confused.

One teacher will tell us to smile whilst singing to brighten the sound (ala TVS, RYV). Another will tell us not to do so as that causes unnecessary tension and that to get pharyngeal vowels we need to hardly move the mouth and allow the tongue to form the shape (ala SLS... No clue on CVT's stance on this). This is very unproductive. I don't see any immediate benefits from either (well okay, smiling definitely aided my bridging... But I find I am now able to get into headvoice without that if I wish) so it's difficult to see which one will be more beneficial over time. So none of us know what to practice.

Also breathing. SOOOOOOOoooOOOOoooo many different opinions on the correct method of breathing: All muscles in stomache relax. No wait, contract that solar plexus instead. What? You idiot, don't do that; you're meant to expand the ribs! Huh? Disregard that and focus it on the lower back... Wait, are you breathing through the nose or the mouth? Well it's wrong, DO THE OTHER ONE!!

What.The.Hell?

We're all very tired of blowin' in the wind like this. I know I'm not the only one who has felt this confusion. It seems like every day somebody else comes out with a new awesome method that will totally revolutionise the way singing is taught and make us all absolutely amazing individuals as long as you forget everything else you've ever learned and stick to practising this new method. Great for that person, sucks for us...

I'm not sure whether this post has a question or a message or anything. It's kind of all over the place. Sort of like vocal tuition then...

If anyone can clarify any of the points raised that would be cool... When It comes to mouth shapes I guess it goes something like.

Wide 'Smile' shape:
+Brighter tone (TVS & RYV)
+Raises soft palate (TVS & RYV)
+Personally aided me into getting a head voice configuration

-Can cause tension in the throat (SLS)
-Possibly too 'musical theatre' (one SLS coach from school)
-Should be able to raise palate and make a brighter tone with tongue using pharyngeal vowels anyway (SLS)

Non-wide, barely moving shape:
+Aids with pharyngeal vowels (SLS)
+No throat constriction (SLS)
+Forces the student to focus on tongue (SLS)
+Easier than trying to constantly maintain a smile (Common sense, though hardly an advantage if it subtracts from performance)

-Duller tone (Obvious)
-Hindered my about to develop a headvoice configuration at first, though now I can achieve it with this.


This gives me nothing. Tried this for breath too. I figure I'll stick with contract the solar plexus because it works for me (sort of... doesn't improve my tone like everyone says it magically will, but makes the pitch more stable).

As I said, I'm not really sure what I'm hoping this post will achieve. People will continually argue over these things which seems like minor details but are actually of vital importance. If the little things count and singing is such a subtle art based on the correct alignment of these 'little things'... Then at least lets set the record straight without all the bitching about competing methods.

It's very obvious at the moment that, due to the contradictory methods, purchasing too many of the above mentioned products is unconstructive, when it should be the opposite. Stick to one... And hope to god that you've picked the right one.

Last edited by Nathan (2011-11-23 10:52:39)

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2011-11-23 10:49:56

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#2 2011-11-23 12:19:08

KillerKu
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Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 607
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Edit: You know, I'm going to cut this post right down because I don't want to mislead anyone with my questionable but well intentioned knowledge

______________________________________________

I've read "Raise Your Voice" (Vendura), "Set your voice Free" (Roger Love, SLS), "Singing and the Actor" (Estill based) and plenty of online material, (this forum, the CVT forums, SLS forums), and even remember seeing some of you guys way back on a forum called the "Virtual Conservatory of Singing" which was geared towards classical (Bel Canto) and run by someone who was openly critical of 'these newer styles of singing as unhealthy.'

There are a few conclusions I've drawn. The first is that ultimately different techniques create different sounds and some singing methods prioritize more so on specific sounds so what they recommend differs in achieving it. They also have different ways of ways of approaching voice. Some rely on scientific evidence of healthy voice possibilities, others on achieving sound ideas, others on vague visualizations, personal interpretations of experiences, or exercises. Many use different names for exactly the same voice function. Some claim to be the 'healthiest' or 'right' way to sing, but I don't think we really have enough medical evidence yet on what is healthy long term to decide this and much of what you hear is marketing spin. 

I suppose bottom line, you have sound and you have health. When you do a different thing, you get a different sound, which is largely preference, but it could very well be more or less healthy too. The problem is we don't have long term scientific research on the effects of all known vocal techniques. The jury's pretty much out, but I would personally consider the way Bel Canto teachings encourage relaxation, breath support, and minimal muscle interference (not intentionally manipulating vocal tract) to be 'safest' for a beginner, and harder to screw up. Almost anything else you do, runs a larger risk of constriction if someone does it wrong or is already constricting. Even then, getting lessons so people can tell what you're doing right or wrong is by far best.

Last edited by KillerKu (2011-11-23 20:54:19)

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#3 2011-11-23 17:35:28

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

a bit of advice no.1 because i hate the terms just practice what feels right for you.  when you find the group of exercises you like and work well for you then no.2 practice like you sing when you get that going no.3 practice practice practice.  When you get that perfect after about 20 years or so(or just wanna make some quick cash) no.4 come up with your own 3 letter abbreviation for a technique and make a dvd series, book, mp3 series, etc.
capeesh
daniel
www.danielformicavocalstudio.com  :D:|:lol::cool:


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#4 2011-11-23 18:05:58

KillerKu
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 607
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Danielformica wrote:

a bit of advice no.1 because i hate the terms just practice what feels right for you.  when you find the group of exercises you like and work well for you then no.2 practice like you sing when you get that going no.3 practice practice practice.  When you get that perfect after about 20 years or so(or just wanna make some quick cash) no.4 come up with your own 3 letter abbreviation for a technique and make a dvd series, book, mp3 series, etc.
capeesh
daniel
www.danielformicavocalstudio.com  :D:|:lol::cool:

This is good advice too, perhaps the best advice. I think feeling comfortable is the number one thing any singer should shoot for, and most people will get very good results by following this method.

It seems there are at least 5 terminologies for every single aspect of voice I've read about, along with a bunch of visualizations and ultimately lots of different preferences.

I recall doing exercises that were uncomfortable for me because I thought they would help even though my voice never had felt uncomfortable prior. Now I'm always uncomfortable no matter what. So if any exercise feels uncomfortable for anyone, don't do those exercises and try to find ones that are comfortable instead, regardless of the source. If it feels bad, it is bad.

Last edited by KillerKu (2011-11-23 18:14:47)

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#5 2011-11-23 18:29:14

VIDEOHERE
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Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7197
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

if i may add my two cents, i.m.o., going at this as a beginner, ( i define a beginner as someone who never sang before, or someone who has sung before but never studied the craft) regardless of what method you use, strickly as a d.i.y. is a mistake.

try to get with a teacher first, even if it's just a few lessons before you do d.i.y. you have to make sure you start off on the right foot. there simply are no shortcuts, no magic pill, and definitely, definitely it's possible to make things worse.

sorry if i sound like a doomsayer, but i'm living proof.

Last edited by VIDEOHERE (2011-11-23 18:29:51)

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#6 2011-11-23 18:51:45

KillerKu
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 607
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

VIDEOHERE wrote:

if i may add my two cents, i.m.o., going at this as a beginner, ( i define a beginner as someone who never sang before, or someone who has sung before but never studied the craft) regardless of what method you use, strickly as a d.i.y. is a mistake.

try to get with a teacher first, even if it's just a few lessons before you do d.i.y. you have to make sure you start off on the right foot. there simply are no shortcuts, no magic pill, and definitely, definitely it's possible to make things worse.

sorry if i sound like a doomsayer, but i'm living proof.

Correction, this might be the best advice. But if you don't follow Bob's advice here which is ideal and you insist on d.i.y. like I did, I'd seriously recommend to people to start with a relaxed, comfortable voice focusing on breath support and to listen very carefully to your body rather than jumping into a bunch of techniques you find in a book or on the net.

Start with your comfortable range that feels natural to you and slowly expand through practice. Don't jump out the gate looking for miracle cures because those cures could easily mess you up.

Me, I'm stuck with loads of tricks I can do with my voice and lots of (now useless) knowledge, but essentially no usable voice do to pain and muscle spasm. Why? Who knows. My guess is on account that 99.99999 percent of people don't have what happened to me happen to them if they live a normal life of speaking and singing, it must have been something I did. I probably wouldn't have done whatever it was I did if I wasn't over educated in potentially questionable knowledge and under trained in applying it

Last edited by KillerKu (2011-11-23 19:08:36)

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#7 2011-11-24 00:05:22

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7197
Reputation :   66 

Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

KillerKu wrote:

VIDEOHERE wrote:

if i may add my two cents, i.m.o., going at this as a beginner, ( i define a beginner as someone who never sang before, or someone who has sung before but never studied the craft) regardless of what method you use, strictly as a d.i.y. is a mistake.

try to get with a teacher first, even if it's just a few lessons before you do d.i.y. you have to make sure you start off on the right foot. there simply are no shortcuts, no magic pill, and definitely, definitely it's possible to make things worse.

sorry if i sound like a doomsayer, but i'm living proof.

Correction, this might be the best advice. But if you don't follow Bob's advice here which is ideal and you insist on d.i.y. like I did, I'd seriously recommend to people to start with a relaxed, comfortable voice focusing on breath support and to listen very carefully to your body rather than jumping into a bunch of techniques you find in a book or on the net.

Start with your comfortable range that feels natural to you and slowly expand through practice. Don't jump out the gate looking for miracle cures because those cures could easily mess you up.

Me, I'm stuck with loads of tricks I can do with my voice and lots of (now useless) knowledge, but essentially no usable voice do to pain and muscle spasm. Why? Who knows. My guess is on account that 99.99999 percent of people don't have what happened to me happen to them if they live a normal life of speaking and singing, it must have been something I did. I probably wouldn't have done whatever it was I did if I wasn't over educated in potentially questionable knowledge and under trained in applying it

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#8 2011-11-24 00:23:29

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7197
Reputation :   66 

Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

kill, i'd be happy to know you will persue every available option to heal.

i'd also like to add, that as time goes on (something along the lines of what dan said) you will begin to realize how you need to adapt what you have learned to your own particular voice and physiological makeup. you will begin to sort of "carve out" your resonance, or you will learn what your particular voice can and cannot do on any given day. an awareness sets in, where you can make adjustments or tweak something to make things better on that day.

kind of like a bowler who has adjust to the lanes with too little or too much oil on them....lol!!!!

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#9 2011-11-24 01:58:23

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

KillerKu wrote:

VIDEOHERE wrote:

if i may add my two cents, i.m.o., going at this as a beginner, ( i define a beginner as someone who never sang before, or someone who has sung before but never studied the craft) regardless of what method you use, strickly as a d.i.y. is a mistake.

try to get with a teacher first, even if it's just a few lessons before you do d.i.y. you have to make sure you start off on the right foot. there simply are no shortcuts, no magic pill, and definitely, definitely it's possible to make things worse.

sorry if i sound like a doomsayer, but i'm living proof.

Correction, this might be the best advice. But if you don't follow Bob's advice here which is ideal and you insist on d.i.y. like I did, I'd seriously recommend to people to start with a relaxed, comfortable voice focusing on breath support and to listen very carefully to your body rather than jumping into a bunch of techniques you find in a book or on the net.

Start with your comfortable range that feels natural to you and slowly expand through practice. Don't jump out the gate looking for miracle cures because those cures could easily mess you up.

Me, I'm stuck with loads of tricks I can do with my voice and lots of (now useless) knowledge, but essentially no usable voice do to pain and muscle spasm. Why? Who knows. My guess is on account that 99.99999 percent of people don't have what happened to me happen to them if they live a normal life of speaking and singing, it must have been something I did. I probably wouldn't have done whatever it was I did if I wasn't over educated in potentially questionable knowledge and under trained in applying it

Hold on to your hat, Killer. I am going to disagree with you, at least just a little.

Because 99 % of people have not experienced what you have does not mean that it was something you did, necessarily. For there are statistics, more statistics, and outright lies (to borrow a phrase from the study of statistics, believe it or not.)

There's a better than 50 percent chance that what your problem is happens to be genetic. When does any person develope fibralmyalgia or Rheumatoid Arthritis?  Again, you just haven't seen the right doctor. And a purely physical injury would have either healed by now, or you would have developed a compensation. Even if it seems like the perfect storm, mathematically, I don't think that is the case.

I, "doctor" Ron, think you might have a neurological problem that is not diagnosed. Anyone want to bet a dozen donuts?


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#10 2011-11-24 02:01:10

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

And I totally missed replying to Nathan's original quandry.

Follow the "Ron" school of singing. Motion in the abs. Note in the head. Nothing in the throat, ever, amen.

Repeat, as necessary.

Thankyouverymuch (need an Elvis smiley right here.)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#11 2011-11-24 03:48:29

Rhapsody
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-10-26
Posts: 26
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

I shall chime in as a newbie on this topic...

I've been a forum lurker for the most part, though I signed up for this forum pretty early about 2 years ago? I bought Pillars 1.0 and that alone was enough to overwhelm me without having a vocal instructor to show me the ropes. I made the mistake of giving up and getting on with life since I thought I probably just don't have the flair for it. However, I just couldn't stop singing and I still sang almost everyday mostly to myself. Eventually I got frustrated (this is an understatement) with my mediocre singing and decided to go all out to train my vocals. Got Pillars 2.0 just a few days ago, signed up for lessons with Robert but have yet to schedule them, and I can't wait for them to start because after reading through the book and watching the videos, I'm overwhelmed once again. Deja Vu!

I've read from this forum many terms from other methodologies like curbing/overdrive/neutral, mixed voice and some very good information from the pros who are generous enough to put it out for free. At some point in time these terms actually made sense. I would say that it felt like fumbling around in the dark in an unfamiliar house, and when it "clicks" where some ideas made a lot of sense it's like touching some of the furniture, albeit in the dark still. I experienced many of these occurrences, but could not get anywhere since the lights were still "off"! I'm hoping that individual lessons with Robert will open my eyes and enlighten me.. I've been yearning for some sight for a long time now.

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#12 2011-11-24 16:04:50

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

You are going to learn something from most of these methods and schools and 80% of the content is the same or is taking you in the same direction. It boils down to how you want to learn, what is important to you in a teacher. I would go with a teacher that definately understands vocal modes, bridging, formants in the head voice, is published and has real research and has done some work on the topic and ... leads by example.

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#13 2011-11-24 16:13:35

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

I think the plethora of training techniques out there is more about the variety of images. Many of the exercises are the same, regardless of name, regardless of image. But just technique and physical exercise is left brain, while singing is right brain, emotional. So, sometimes, on mental image works better for a singer than another. In TVS, there is intrinsic anchoring. In RYV, there is the bull frog. In other systems, it is "think down to go up," such as Roger Burnley. But the end result is to keep the larynx from going too high. For some, it's the pre-yawn, for others, such as myself, it's the smile. This does brighten tone and allows access to the upper resonators.

Resonant tracking in TVS is an easier, softer onset than the mums and gugs and keeps you in your resonance. But some prefer the gug, which actually provides a little glottal stroke.

Find what works for you (in general) and stay with that. Which allows me to echo the point (and I don't take credit for it, humor aside) don't strain.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#14 2011-11-24 23:05:32

Nathan
TMV Forum Member
From: London, UK.
Registered: 2010-08-11
Posts: 135
Reputation :   

Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

In regards to the mouth shape, I never find any benefit from the non-smile thing. I always end up doing the smile, especially on those high notes. It just flat out sounds better and helps me cut through the band in a rehearsal or performance.

I guess I'm just finding it frustrating being forced to learn all this SLS bullcrap which never works for me. It never has and I really don't suspect it will ever. Rob warned me I might be forced to learn some of it. It doesn't seem to be helping any of my classmates either, in my opinion it really is a flawed system. I'm sure a bunch of you will defend it. In fact, I insist that you please do. It's just, aside from all the questionable testimonials on Brett Manning/Seth Riggs site, nobody seems to be progressing with it and that is quite frustrating. Perhaps it's not SLS entirely and our teachers suck. Definite possibility. When adapted slightly, it made a bit more sense (like when Dan F taught me some of it) but otherwise I feel I'm not getting something.

Even when I go through Brett's dvds, I get nothing. Maybe I'm missing something? I tried again on it a few weeks ago, with the knowledge I have now (bridging etc.) and it was definitely easier, but I'm not sure what I stand to gain from it, you know? For someone like myself who is aiming for a better tone as opposed to "Oh wow, I can sing like three billion octaves" I'm not sure what it can offer.

This post was kinda just me venting about how messed up and confusing this can seem to us guys who are kind of in the middle of where we want to be. I almost wish I was an absolute beginner again, at least then I trusted everything. Now, whenever I hear of a new technique, I'm immediately skeptical if it doesn't support what I already know. It's bad, I know, but I cannot help it. I went through a lot of bad teachers (ones in my area) before I found some really good ones (Lunte, Frasier and Formica) who actually had answers and helped me over the big bridging issue. Just stuck on tone now and everywhere I turn the answer seems to be "Tone comes naturally when technique is right"... Which may be true, but if the creation of tone is something I can control, then there must be multiple options. If that is so, then how can it 'come naturally'? What about wanting to sing other styles?

Example, I'm a rock singer. Everyone agrees. Rock is what I naturally sing. But, I also enjoy soul. I also enjoy folk. I enjoy blues.
I can get away with a rock voice in some of these... But let's say I want to add more soul? What do I do? What exercises help?
Suddenly "With good technique comes good tone" doesn't seem so helpful.

Unless, again, I am missing something... Which is very possible.

Last edited by Nathan (2011-11-24 23:06:44)

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#15 2011-11-24 23:49:36

Keith
TMV Forum Member
From: Dryden, NY
Registered: 2011-09-05
Posts: 1837
Reputation :   16 
Website

Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Right before I signed up on this forum, my brother ordered me singing success, and mastering mix. The only benefit I have gotten out of those 2 programs is some pretty good warm ups. IMO, the two programs will never work for me.   I was not aware there was a Robert Lunte or a Dan Formica at that time. The only person I knew of was Jamie Vendera. So, I had to choose which guy I wanted.. I believe that some methods work for some people, and not for others. It most likely depends on the seriousness of the student, physiology, and dedication. For all the time I spent working on singing success, I did not gain 1 note of range (In either direction). Just using the information on this forum, I have gained at least 3 notes - 4 on a good day. I can sing from E2 to C5 (again, on a good day). I will, after finals week, try and got some skype with Rob, and with Dan - get 2 opinions on what I need to do and where to start. My goal is to be able to sing Take Hold of the Flame by the middle of next year.

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#16 2011-11-25 07:54:05

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3087
Reputation :   55 
Website

Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Nathan wrote:

In regards to the mouth shape, I never find any benefit from the non-smile thing. I always end up doing the smile, especially on those high notes. It just flat out sounds better and helps me cut through the band in a rehearsal or performance.

I guess I'm just finding it frustrating being forced to learn all this SLS bullcrap which never works for me. It never has and I really don't suspect it will ever. Rob warned me I might be forced to learn some of it. It doesn't seem to be helping any of my classmates either, in my opinion it really is a flawed system. I'm sure a bunch of you will defend it. In fact, I insist that you please do. It's just, aside from all the questionable testimonials on Brett Manning/Seth Riggs site, nobody seems to be progressing with it and that is quite frustrating. Perhaps it's not SLS entirely and our teachers suck. Definite possibility. When adapted slightly, it made a bit more sense (like when Dan F taught me some of it) but otherwise I feel I'm not getting something.

Even when I go through Brett's dvds, I get nothing. Maybe I'm missing something? I tried again on it a few weeks ago, with the knowledge I have now (bridging etc.) and it was definitely easier, but I'm not sure what I stand to gain from it, you know? For someone like myself who is aiming for a better tone as opposed to "Oh wow, I can sing like three billion octaves" I'm not sure what it can offer.

This post was kinda just me venting about how messed up and confusing this can seem to us guys who are kind of in the middle of where we want to be. I almost wish I was an absolute beginner again, at least then I trusted everything. Now, whenever I hear of a new technique, I'm immediately skeptical if it doesn't support what I already know. It's bad, I know, but I cannot help it. I went through a lot of bad teachers (ones in my area) before I found some really good ones (Lunte, Frasier and Formica) who actually had answers and helped me over the big bridging issue. Just stuck on tone now and everywhere I turn the answer seems to be "Tone comes naturally when technique is right"... Which may be true, but if the creation of tone is something I can control, then there must be multiple options. If that is so, then how can it 'come naturally'? What about wanting to sing other styles?

Example, I'm a rock singer. Everyone agrees. Rock is what I naturally sing. But, I also enjoy soul. I also enjoy folk. I enjoy blues.
I can get away with a rock voice in some of these... But let's say I want to add more soul? What do I do? What exercises help?
Suddenly "With good technique comes good tone" doesn't seem so helpful.

Unless, again, I am missing something... Which is very possible.

Nate, I told you a million times before and I will tell you again... unfortunately, the "keep your larynx neutral" ideas have invaded so many schools and teachers its hard to get away from it. It has had 30 years to spread around the world... the irony is, just like you said, if you want to get past your chest voice and really build some "boom" in the head voice... really unlock the mysteries of how to sing high notes, it is completely a waste of time in my opinion.  They have no, I repeat, no understanding of vocal modes, intrinsic anchoring, working with compression and all the high tech things you need to really get the job done, and neither do other programs that cling onto this outdated idea. Truth is, "sing with a neutral larynx" ideas are falling apart and people are resigning by the droves.. the Europeans don't know yet, but in America... its melting down.

I feel sorry for you, truly... that you have to spend money on that!  Frankly it makes me angry.  Nate, purchase the new update to "The Four Pillars of Singing" 2.0 like you said you were going to do and just go through the motions with those guys, secretly behind the scenes and in your practice time, dive into your TVS training and Pillars and get something real done.

Ask your teacher there why Dean Kaelin and John Henny (someone that posts on this forum all the time), both teachers that dedicated over 15 years to SLS and Dave Stroud... the #2 guy that was running the entire SLS business around the world have ALL resigned?  They don't even know about it in Europe. There are personal issues around that, but its also because the pedagogy needs to be updated. Teachers are leaving because they are realizing what you understand... There are so many NEW methods that are just better, CVI, Tamplin, TVS... we all know what we are doing and understand larynx physiology, modes, intrinsic anchoring ideas, vowel modification ideas, etc...  Do not waste your time with that, dig into your "Pillars" 2.0... to get real progress and then just go through the motions with your teacher to get the stupid grade. I suppose you can learn something from it, but you nailed it Nate, you now what is up... most of that stuff is just a sham... and you said other students are also getting no where with it?  There you have it, what more proof do you need that what your being asked to do is obsolete and really is missing some important points... namely, how do you sing in the head voice. Im sorry, I hate to sound like a loud mouth, but this makes me angry... you have a school with a bunch of kids spending a lot of money on a service and they are getting this "neurtralize your larynx" stuff again... its a cancer!

Coach

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#17 2011-11-25 08:22:44

KillerKu
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-10-05
Posts: 607
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

I hate to be a downer or speak poorly of something, but I really agree with Robert that I don't think Speech Level Singing is the best route and personally I would consider it my least favored route. Right on this forum I have a lot more faith in Lunte, specifically because he is interested in vocal science and he can demonstrate to you what he knows quite well.

When I got my voice problem it was when doing SLS oriented exercises. I would never blame them outright (that's unfair as it could have been anything), but if you listen to like Brett Manning who basically does SLS oriented stuff as an example, he's almost always seeming to have 'voice problems' and even one of his top students is getting voice surgery (Keith Urban). I'm not trying to be a jerk as I'm sure he's a nice guy, but I flat out don't trust their methodology.

I believe that even if you want a sound closer to this pop style of singing, getting a CVT teacher who understands vocal modes (curbing would get you close to this sound without as much BS) would be better. I'm sure Rob can work people towards the right sounds too, but I know he prefers more heavy metal sounds, which are his forte.

Anyway, I've still seen SLS material dated as of this year, that claims you need to zip up your vocal cords to get higher notes. This is not really truth and risks enormous amounts of constriction. I was trying exercises that claimed to do the physically impossible. Their singing methodology may work for some people, but it's not a very scientific approach and I have the least faith in it's safety or accuracy.

Once again, I hate to say it, because I'm sure these are all fine people who believe very much in their singing methodology and I could be wrong. I'd just beware and choose very carefully who you trust.

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#18 2011-11-25 08:37:48

Robert Lunte
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

KillerKu wrote:

I hate to be a downer or speak poorly of something, but I really agree with Robert that I don't think Speech Level Singing is the best route and personally I would consider it my least favored route. Right on this forum I have a lot more faith in Lunte, specifically because he is interested in vocal science and he can demonstrate to you what he knows quite well.

When I got my voice problem it was when doing SLS oriented exercises. I would never blame them outright (that's unfair as it could have been anything), but if you listen to like Brett Manning who basically does SLS oriented stuff as an example, he's almost always seeming to have 'voice problems' and even one of his top students is getting voice surgery (Keith Urban). I'm not trying to be a jerk as I'm sure he's a nice guy, but I flat out don't trust their methodology.

I believe that even if you want a sound closer to this pop style of singing, getting a CVT teacher who understands vocal modes (curbing would get you close to this sound without as much BS) would be better. I'm sure Rob can work people towards the right sounds too, but I know he prefers more heavy metal sounds, which are his forte.

Anyway, I've still seen SLS material dated as of this year, that claims you need to zip up your vocal cords to get higher notes. This is not really truth and risks enormous amounts of constriction. I was trying exercises that claimed to do the physically impossible. Their singing methodology may work for some people, but it's not a very scientific approach and I have the least faith in it's safety or accuracy.

Once again, I hate to say it, because I'm sure these are all fine people who believe very much in their singing methodology and I could be wrong. I'd just beware and choose very carefully who you trust.

You could be wrong, but your not... 

The consumers are being bamboozled. And frankly, I know from insiders that one of those founders is allegedly smoking pot all day... I know what marijuana abuse looks like. When you smoke it chronically every day... you get big dark circles under your eyes. Maybe its just gossip, but the videos certainly appear to me that something isn't right.

TVS, CVI, Vendera or Tamplin will get you great results, there are other great teachers that "get it" too, like Formica and Richards, these are your top guns. What ever you do, be weary of the "balance the larynx" people, its a huge problem for the unsuspecting consumer in my opinion.  It is not what they are teaching that is the heart of the problem, its what they are NOT teaching... or to be honest, CAN'T teach because they don't know how and thus, cannot demonstrate it for their clients.

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#19 2011-11-25 14:08:37

KillerKu
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Rob, I'd forgotten the extent the incessant 'balance your larynx stuff' had an effect on me, but you just brought it all back. That got me so damned paranoid about my larynx raising up. Come to think of it, now I've got chronic muscle spasms and pain seemingly in some of the muscles that support the larynx. Not saying that's related, but I have no clue. Once I started reading more educated viewpoints on the voice, a lot of it 'clicked,' even though it was too late for me. Much of SLS is muddled and inaccurate at best, probably dangerous at worst.

Anyway, I just realized people had spoken to me earlier in the thread that I missed:

Videohere, I promise I will try to get help again. I am honestly just terrified now. After this long and having so many painful trips to doctors, when those trips go wrong, especially when they try to force me to use my voice in ways that can trigger spasm, and then they just leave me there in a spasm that can last for hours saying 'I don't know.' I've had to ride 100 miles home in so much pain. Once a spasm becomes full blown I can't stop it and never know when it will end. I feel safer 'managing' the problem by not talking when I feel it clamp up, but that will never fix the problem, I know that. Money is also becoming more and more of an issue. 

Ronsw, yes you're right I'm jumping to a conclusion if I blame something I did for my voice problem. It could be neurological or came about separately from my singing misadventures. The main reason I suspect it's something I did, is the pain and spasm is very targeted towards muscles in my throat and effects speech, when most other problems would not be so directly targeted towards what I'd have used so extensively.     

CunoDante, I remember you but you wouldn't remember me on the Virtual Conservatory. I was mostly a lurker, but had a few posts under the name "Mustard." I was mostly ignorant at that point, (younger, healthier, dumber, etc) but have learned a whole lot since then. I was kind of forced into learning as much as I can after my voice problem and that's part of why I try to help people here who might be in the same situation that I was in to either take a safer route or ideally get some training.

Last edited by KillerKu (2011-11-25 14:35:13)

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#20 2011-11-25 15:43:48

KillerKu
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

@Dante, my current doctor said he was going to call me to try botox and more speech therapy. That call never came. Fortunately (or unfortunately in getting a diagnosis) the problem seems to be in the supporting muscles, not in the vocal folds. So it's not likely the traditional dysphonia.

On my absolute best day, I can force good enough technique to make my voice work, albeit painfully, much of the time. When the muscles are clamping at their worst, get nothing more than a hiss, otherwise extreme pain and further clenching. Much of the time it's some state in between.

I don't want to hijack this thread any further so:

My introduction there. http://themodernvocalist.punbb-hosting. … hp?id=2860
Pre and post problem sound clips of my voice: http://themodernvocalist.punbb-hosting. … hp?id=3151

But we should should keep on with the main topic, because I think it's a good one. My theory is before most people try an advanced voice mode or some advanced singing program they should probably get comfortable with their normal voice. Some people call it chest voice. I think the first steps into singing should not be overly technical or overwhelming, but actually based on relaxation and opening up a bit while introducing the idea of breathing deeper and supporting. That's just my opinion having gone from complete beginner to someone that could sing, back to someone that could not sing. I got the whole arc of the singing rainbow, eh.

I've been listening to a lot of the beginners in the voice critique, and some of them seem tense and not comfortable with singing yet. One even told me he tries a different singing exercise technique every day. It's very important they aren't being overwhelmed with a bunch of competing terminologies and advanced techniques. I'm sure with a teacher most of you (non SLS, balanced larynx obsessed) teachers understand this and would be cordial with a newbie, but I know pretty well that not everyone is going to get a teacher because of financial reasons or psychological reasons. As much as I'd recommend it, I know not everyone will, so I think if people can be helped with that, rather than overwhelming them with competing tech terms, they'll have the best shot of coming out the other end healthily.

I really believe there is a place for more advanced techniques, but you should walk before you run and while a lot of the material out there is great, most people don't take enough time to emphasize this important aspect.

Last edited by KillerKu (2011-11-25 15:49:34)

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#21 2011-11-25 16:25:13

Keith
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

For Christmas, if someone wants to get me a really awesome gift, purchase Pillars for me :) You would become my best friend forever!

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#22 2011-11-25 17:29:58

geno
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

KillerKu wrote:

It could be neurological or came about separately from my singing misadventures. The main reason I suspect it's something I did, is the pain and spasm is very targeted towards muscles in my throat and effects speech, when most other problems would not be so directly targeted towards what I'd have used so extensively.

That makes sense - what you are describing does sound occupational, or directly related to what you were doing as one cause of muscle spasms is when the muscle is over used.  The energy from the cells has been depleted and / or when there is dehydration and electrolyte abnormalities.  Do you know which exact muscle(s) are involved with the spasms?  Skeletal or smooth muscles?

Has the doctor prescribed anti-inflammatories?  If so - I would highly recommend trying enzyme supplements like Wobenzym instead.  I've had a lot of experience with over-use injuries and traditional NSAIDs.

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#23 2011-11-26 14:38:14

Rhapsody
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Keith wrote:

For Christmas, if someone wants to get me a really awesome gift, purchase Pillars for me :) You would become my best friend forever!

Keith, Pillars 2.0 is worth every single cent of it all. There is a truckload of content in it. I cut down my personal expenses to save up for it, ate less on some days, and just lived by on basic necessities. Didn't do any shopping, or bought anything much for myself. It may sound a little extreme, but that's how much I want to learn how to sing.

However I would add that without a personal coach or instructor it's going to be very tough trying to learn just by using a training system.. I made that mistake once 2 years back when I bought Pillars 1.0 and ended up almost giving up on singing because I didn't want to spend the $ for lessons with Robert. This time I'm back, and I signed up for 3 lessons along with Pillars 2.0. My first lesson's coming next week and I'm so pumped and excited!

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#24 2011-11-26 16:21:57

Robert Lunte
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Rhapsody... I am proud of you and really excited that you made the commitment... Now... it is on me to deliver the goods... I will help you to sing amazing and put every ounce of my energy , talent and knowledge into helping you. You WILL now make great progress... I assure you... see you next week.

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#25 2011-11-28 21:31:59

Nathan
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

I want 2.0. It's just a case of money for me at the moment. I'm incredibly broke. Not like 'stealing food from garbage' broke. Closer to 'stealing toiletries from pub bathrooms' broke (not my proudest moment, funny though).

I'm finding it all starts coming together sometimes. Today the SLS teacher actually gave me an exercise that helped... It was odd. She wasn't talking about 'neutral larynx' or 'keeping a dopey mouth shape'... She actually encouraged me to make a slightly wider mouth. Maybe the other stuff is just for a beginner learning to bridge type person? I dunno. Perhaps I'm just odd.
Still doesn't change my tone, but it's a little more encouraging at least.
SLS is still a terrible technique though :D  Just this one thing helped...

Killerku, sorry to hear about your recent troubles. I hope they improve soon. Keep us posted.

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#26 2011-11-28 21:50:37

Robert Lunte
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Well Nate, if you pay attention, you will learn something from your teacher there. There is something to learn from most voice teachers, its not all completely rubbish. It will keep you voice in good health and stretched out, but your just not going to get much progress with your connecting and head voice work in particular, but make the best of it and get P2.0 as soon as you can so you know you have the real deal always at your side.

Take care...

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#27 2011-11-29 20:16:36

VIDEOHERE
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

great words of wisdom on picking a vocal teacher:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/user/TenelliVoiceGuru#p/u/2/63TF4S6VYYU[/youtube]

Last edited by VIDEOHERE (2011-11-29 20:17:18)

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#28 2011-12-18 14:06:38

ronws
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

VIDEOHERE wrote:

great words of wisdom on picking a vocal teacher:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/user/TenelliVoiceGuru#p/u/2/63TF4S6VYYU[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/user/TenelliVoiceGuru#p/u/2/63TF4S6VYYU[/youtube]


maybe that will fix the link.

Last edited by ronws (2011-12-18 14:10:29)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#29 2011-12-18 14:18:48

ronws
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#30 2011-12-19 22:22:45

VIDEOHERE
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

ronws wrote:

thank you brother ron.

Last edited by VIDEOHERE (2011-12-19 22:22:56)

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#31 2011-12-29 18:17:23

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Change the way you look for coachs. Instead of concerning about the method he/she uses, concern about finding one who can actually sing VERY WELL, without effort and consistently, and that at the same time can explain CLEARLY why do you need to do a certain exercise and what it will that accomplish. If the coach cannot sing, he dont know what he is talking about in the first place. If the coach can not explain clearly what you are doing, he/she needs to learn it better before trying to work with other people.

And by explaining I mean showing you the problem that he/she spoted on what you are doing and how the proposed exercise will help.

In singing everyone is odd, trying to apply the same exercise in 2 different persons will always lead to different results. What you need to do is not the same that another person who has other issues to solve has to.

The coach Im working with now took 6 months to understand what the hell I was doing with my voice when I came to him, while slowly working on forward placement, support and emission. Before he could understand better, we didnt even tampered with the EE vowel, that was my main problem at the time.

What I mean is: look for someone that instead of blindlly working with the method, works understanding you and your voice before anything else.

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#32 2011-12-29 20:06:29

Robert Lunte
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Yes Felipe... someone that can sing and do the things they are trying to teach you and can do them very well... and someone that understands the physiology and acoustics (the science) of how to sing well... and if you can, someone that is published, has taken the time to do research, to organize their thoughts, to understand their own methodology so they can discover how to teach it better... growth and advancement in a voice coach's progress that can only come from sitting down and writing a book and/or publishing well produced videos... but I truly think, mostly, has written articles and a book. To write a book is a lot different then just turning on a video camera... both are important, but when you sit down to write a book, you really go "deep"... you HAVE to do research and you HAVE to be more accurate and the process forces you to learn more about yourself as a voice coach... which in turn, makes you a very effective teacher and communicator for students.  It is not the "end all", but certainly, it is a huge factor to consider.

I agree with your point that a voice coach should be able to sing and demonstrate their own techniques in scales and in music... this is preferred of course and provides a lot of credibility, however, I would like to point out... there are voice teachers that do not sing, but still can get results.

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#33 2011-12-29 21:42:51

jonpall
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

I might add that it's wise to look not only at the coach but his students and how well THEY sing. And also how well they sang BEFORE working with that coach.

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#34 2011-12-29 21:53:13

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

jonpall wrote:

I might add that it's wise to look not only at the coach but his students and how well THEY sing. And also how well they sang BEFORE working with that coach.

I agree completely. Its easy to pick someone who can sing well on their own, record a few scales on video and then go shouting to the world that you coached singer X and Y.

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#35 2011-12-29 22:03:04

Robert Lunte
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Agreed Felipe, something we see a LOT of with other "singing schools" out there from time to time... I just had this discussion with a guy from NY who called me.  Its so obvious to me that some people just recruit the above average gifted voice (a person that can make technique work for them  more intuitively then the average guy... there are a lot of them out there, its perfectly normal), and then put their picture on your home page and say, "see, I did that... that person's success is all about my book and program"... The "name dropping" in this business that is really questionable makes me want to vomit honestly. Its just cheap tactics to seduce the blinded consumers in this market that just don't understand the inner workings of the business... Some of my best singers, students are people you have never heard of... but they can sing circles around many celebrity artists... celebrity artists are important, they inspire us... and there are some cases of someone training for a long time with one teacher and genuinely, getting a lot better from that, but too often, we see that someone just helped a signed artist warm up back stage on one occassion, or had a call on the phone and next thing you know... they are claiming that they are the ones that made everything happen for this artist... it just makes me want to hurl.

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#36 2011-12-29 22:05:25

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Robert Lunte wrote:

Yes Felipe... someone that can sing and do the things they are trying to teach you and can do them very well... and someone that understands the physiology and acoustics (the science) of how to sing well... and if you can, someone that is published, has taken the time to do research, to organize their thoughts, to understand their own methodology so they can discover how to teach it better... growth and advancement in a voice coach's progress that can only come from sitting down and writing a book and/or publishing well produced videos... but I truly think, mostly, has written articles and a book. To write a book is a lot different then just turning on a video camera... both are important, but when you sit down to write a book, you really go "deep"... you HAVE to do research and you HAVE to be more accurate and the process forces you to learn more about yourself as a voice coach... which in turn, makes you a very effective teacher and communicator for students.  It is not the "end all", but certainly, it is a huge factor to consider.

I agree with your point that a voice coach should be able to sing and demonstrate their own techniques in scales and in music... this is preferred of course and provides a lot of credibility, however, I would like to point out... there are voice teachers that do not sing, but still can get results.

Indeed Robert, but how rare is that? The ammount of experience this person would need with singers and other coaches... For a begginer, its a long, long shot to know it.

Ive seen so many videos of people that barelly cant talk and claim that can teach you how to sing, sometimes with those simple, magic solutions that will make everyone the next Freddie Mercury... Its a market where frauds can endure, unfortunatelly. I really believe that for beginners the best choice is to hear the person sing, it should be impressive, not just "oh ok, sounds fine". That or a very good recomendation. Promises of fast results, 8 octaves of range, easy to learn, etc = suspect snake oil.

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#37 2011-12-29 22:12:12

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Robert Lunte wrote:

Agreed Felipe, something we see a LOT of with other "singing schools" out there from time to time... I just had this discussion with a guy from NY who called me.  Its so obvious to me that some people just recruit the above average gifted voice (a person that can make technique work for them  more intuitively then the average guy... there are a lot of them out there, its perfectly normal), and then put their picture on your home page and say, "see, I did that... that person's success is all about my book and program"... The "name dropping" in this business that is really questionable makes me want to vomit honestly. Its just cheap tactics to seduce the blinded consumers in this market that just don't understand the inner workings of the business... Some of my best singers, students are people you have never heard of... but they can sing circles around many celebrity artists... celebrity artists are important, they inspire us... and there are some cases of someone training for a long time with one teacher and genuinely, getting a lot better from that, but too often, we see that someone just helped a signed artist warm up back stage on one occassion, or had a call on the phone and next thing you know... they are claiming that they are the ones that made everything happen for this artist... it just makes me want to hurl.

Yes... It kinda makes me sad. I dont think its any different than pretending to be a phonoaudiologist or another professional who can have a great deal of effect on the health of others.

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#38 2011-12-29 22:21:55

Robert Lunte
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Actually,, true... this is the toughest part of being in this business from the perspective of a voice coach like myself... the margin between what the consumer actually understands about vocal technique, what it is, what it looks like, what the difference is between style and technique, ... and the truth. Add to that, its an industry that is unregulated... this is a perfect storm of unbridled marketing tactics where some people will say and do just about anything to get into your pockets and have little to back it up, to the totally blinded consumer of vocal training products. Its not like buying a car, where you basic life experience gives you some advantage on what you want, need and what is bullshit from the sales guy... when it comes to vocal training products, the consumer knows NOTHING... so you can tell them anything... and some people do that.  They come in different degrees ... there are a few frauds, but most are not fraudulent. Most are just exaggerating (especially the ones that you never hear sing or demonstrate), and they really care first about you money... there are some teachers however, that truly DO care about your progress and less about the money... sincerely, they are out there, its in our nature... the good ones, really have a heart and soul for helping people... they get a pleasure out of it... but there are some.. some of the biggest "schools of singing" that really are mostly about big marketing machines to get your money... and your success as a singer is a secondary concern... this is only my qualified opinion.

However, I think consumers in this industry are beginning to become more aware and enlightened then they used to be... to be sure, the TMV forum has played an important role in setting the record straight on a lot of snake oil... thank you TMV Forum.

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#39 2011-12-29 22:26:52

Robert Lunte
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

Robert Lunte wrote:

Agreed Felipe, something we see a LOT of with other "singing schools" out there from time to time... I just had this discussion with a guy from NY who called me.  Its so obvious to me that some people just recruit the above average gifted voice (a person that can make technique work for them  more intuitively then the average guy... there are a lot of them out there, its perfectly normal), and then put their picture on your home page and say, "see, I did that... that person's success is all about my book and program"... The "name dropping" in this business that is really questionable makes me want to vomit honestly. Its just cheap tactics to seduce the blinded consumers in this market that just don't understand the inner workings of the business... Some of my best singers, students are people you have never heard of... but they can sing circles around many celebrity artists... celebrity artists are important, they inspire us... and there are some cases of someone training for a long time with one teacher and genuinely, getting a lot better from that, but too often, we see that someone just helped a signed artist warm up back stage on one occassion, or had a call on the phone and next thing you know... they are claiming that they are the ones that made everything happen for this artist... it just makes me want to hurl.

Yes... It kinda makes me sad. I dont think its any different than pretending to be a phonoaudiologist or another professional who can have a great deal of effect on the health of others.

Well... in spite of the point I make above, even those that would seek to make the sale and care not about your success as a singer after the sale, are still people that are NOT going to hurt you. Actually selling products and services that would actually cause physical injury doesn't really exist. Nobody is THAT bad... this is not a concern... its just a matter of your money and what real results can you get after you flush out all the "noise", pretty web sites, weekly newsletters that wont stop coming and big budgets to pay for Google PPC advertising...

BTW... in regards to results, you can always look at a page like this from my web site which are quotes from real people... common, everyday singers... something like this from any coach has some value. http://themodernvocalist.punbb-hosting. … 567#p32567

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#40 2011-12-29 22:54:45

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Robert Lunte wrote:

Well... in spite of the point I make above, even those that would seek to make the sale and care not about your success as a singer after the sale, are still people that are NOT going to hurt you. Actually selling products and services that would actually cause physical injury doesn't really exist. Nobody is THAT bad... this is not a concern... its just a matter of your money and what real results can you get after you flush out all the "noise", pretty web sites, weekly newsletters that wont stop coming and big budgets to pay for Google PPC advertising...

BTW... in regards to results, you can always look at a page like this from my web site which are quotes from real people... common, everyday singers... something like this from any coach has some value. http://thevocaliststudio.com/robert-lunte/testimonials/

Well, I can not agree to that, I took lessons with a very famous coach around here in my country, for 1 year and a half. I jumped from it because my voice was getting unstable and I was having trouble to sing even easy songs with my band, getting sore after 2 hours reharsals, etc. The quality did improve somehow, but it was clearly afecting my health.

When I found my new coach, by his own recomendation I went to the doctor and asked for an examination after telling the tale. The results showed swelled folds due to abuse. He was THAT bad :(.

I was lucky that no permanent damage was made, like some callous formations or nodules, but it took me 1 year to unlearn the bad habits and start from scratch. Should I have insisted on that so called, method, it was very likely that in the age that I am right now, my voice would have some permanent damage.

BTW I didnt understand the link, it points to this topic?

Last edited by FelipeCarvalho (2011-12-29 22:55:38)

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#41 2011-12-30 00:33:14

Robert Lunte
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Uh... well, I guess I was talking about voice teachers that have some kind of significant public exposure and International brands... not the local hack that should be arrested... sure there are also hacks that know nothing on every street corner, i thought we were talking about real voice coaches?  Im confused... 

sorry about the link, here is what I wanted to show you: http://thevocaliststudio.com/robert-lunte/testimonials/

Not necessarily trying to pitch my studio here, but just to show you that client endorsements and testimonials like this can also be a decent source of research for what is working...

Look, the answers to your questions and concerns are clearly stated and pointed out above... its now on you to engage and get'r done.

Hope this helps...

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#42 2011-12-30 02:01:46

ronws
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Just wanted to add my two cents. And I can't help it as I tend to judge the worth of a coach by what they can sing. But if we're going to use that guage of what a teacher can teach, you definitely want a teacher that can walk the walk, as well as talk the talk. That kind of teacher be Robert Lunte.

And no, I don't say that because this is his forum. I don't expect special favor. Ask anyone that has been here a while. I have a bad habit of saying what I think or know. Sometimes, it bites me in the keister.

Of all the popular rock singing systems, I have liked Roberts's the best because it is closest to the classical technique I have studied. And, in so doing, is also likely to preserve your voice for decades.

And Robert will work with you on payments but he has bills to pay, as well. Which caused me some surprise in the number of free tutorials that he has posted here. Most singing system coaches won't give you freebies. You get endless pages of testimonials and self-aggrandizement. But Robert has posted videos of exactly what he means by lift up - pull back. As well as his overlay distortion (the healthiest rasp technique I have seen. And it was easy enough for me to understand, even from the book.  So well, that I once posted an example of it that was so loud that I overloaded the condenser mic and people thought it was a falsetto, even though I was rattling like a super-tuned Harley (dom't make me write another book length post describing what that means.

And don't dare to post, yet again, Robert performing "Green Menalishi." I am in a weakened state. ;)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#43 2011-12-30 02:14:28

Robert Lunte
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Thanks for your continued support Ron, I don't care what the other kids say about you... you really do "get it".  And no, I am not conspiring with Ron under the table to say these things, truth is, Ron and I have never personally met, I really don't know a lot about Ron, other than he is a satisfied client of TVS and TMV and is a friend of the virtual world... thanks again Ron and lets ALL plan on big achievements in 2012.

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#44 2011-12-30 09:50:53

jonpall
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Ron, so you've finally gotten The Four Pillars?

Last edited by jonpall (2011-12-30 10:03:55)

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#45 2011-12-30 10:58:53

ronws
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

jonpall wrote:

Ron, so you've finally gotten The Four Pillars?

Some time ago. Doing some of the exercises inspired my version of "Jesus just left Chicago." (octave ascending slides.) And you can take from it what you need. Also, I like how the warm-ups start in the middle of one's voice, not the extremes. Then you work up, then you work down.

Maybe choice of symptoms, like I said before, is a matter of which language speaks to you, the student, the best. So many people appreciate the segmented toolbox approach of CVT. And it produces astounding singers, as well. You, jonpall, most notable among them. But a lot of that success is you. Just as any teacher can teach what he teaches, but the student has to learn, as well.

And, to actually brag about Robert some more, he was able to help me start getting 4 Pillars when not many people were my friends. He really is about the singing and I appreciate that. And what I like about the materials is that he doesn't spend a lot of time comparing against other systems. He gets right into what you need to do. When it comes to listening to students of his in the youtube channel is that you can hear any one from a baritone to a spinto tenor and they all have achieve stronger voice from the training. When I say stronger, I don't mean muscular wise, I mean stronger sense of sustainable voice production and quality.

Trust me, when I go along with the exercises, I do not sound like Robert Lunte, even though I like his sound. My G4 sounds different than his, and that's okay. The important thing is to do the G4 correctly. Even as a legit tenor, I still have to bridge early, like others.

What's important to me in Robert's exercises is not so much to the talk-track and tech lingo an analogies but to listen to what he is doing. His onset. And his use of the vowel. Those speak volumes. Wise words indeed, "singing is onsets and vowels, vowels and onsets are singing." (paraphrased)

And I have had a chance to meet one of Robert's astounding students in person. Aaron Meyers. He is actually from Texas, though he lives in the Pacific Northwest. He was down here visiting family and I was invited to visit with him. So, I can hear the fruits of tuition directly, live and in person, not through some recording. Not only did the system round out his voice to something magnificent, but the skills learned gave him confidence that he didn't quite have before. And the big chunk of singing in front of others is having the audacity to think you have something to share.

Now, I really do sound like a testimonial for 4 Pillars and I didn't mean to. And I've got to get to work. So, I'll have to come back and write another book. :lol:


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#46 2011-12-30 12:26:12

jonpall
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

I've said it before that I've had a sort of love/hate relationship with cvt, because a lot of it has been very helpful but some of it doesn't ring that well with me. And one of the exercises I've done the most often in the past, is an octave siren on the word yay, pretty much like is described in Jamie Vendera's "Raise your voice" - and that's similar to Robert Lunte's sirens. But ultimately, I think that singers should not ONLY use a single vocal program and never see any vocal coach. It's much better to see a vocal coach at least every now and then AND maybe use a purchased program, or even several programs. But it's so helpful to get a good coach hear your voice and give you pointers. At some point however, you do get better at analyzing your trouble spots (and others') yourself.

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#47 2011-12-30 13:04:29

KillerKu
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

I'll give you my honest, mildly informed opinion on Rob, not owning Four Pillars but having read the forum here, having heard him sing and seen his free teaching exercises.

I hate testimonials. I absolutely do because they are commonly faked junk that I find on pyramid schemes, magic fairy dust solutions to weight loss or to cure diseases, are often attached to products that offer very little value for money and need some kind of marketing gimmick to compensate. I always think of that guy on TV, 'computer learning made easy, learn how to use Windows with these CD RAM (yes, he says it wrong and expects you to buy it) lessons. Buy my product.' Yeah, ok.

When I go on a website, and it's like 'if you want to sing 4 octaves in 2 days, then check out the 30 people in the comment section who claim my product is the best since sliced bread," it triggers my skepticism and I get the feeling of 'snake oil' salesman. I tend to lose trust in people fast from marketing. So for my personal state of mind, screw testimonials. Even before/after demonstrations are often faked on websites and infomercials to sell you something.

That said, back to Rob? It's actually in spite of marketing in general that I suspect he's a good teacher, a knowledgeable, good person, and a skilled singer. He can be hot headed at times and a bit eager to duel other singers to prove a point, but I believe his heart is in the right place and he teaches what he teaches well. I can't speak for his book, but I'm very thankful for both his knowledge, his open mind, and his forum. If his book is anything like this forum it's probably quite good. The fact that he doesn't stick his head in the sand, and is trying to keep up to date on the voice, it puts him miles ahead of SLS in my trust. It's what I've seen of Robert Lunte the human being, the teacher who sings, studies, and keeps an open forum that has given me more trust than any marketing spiel could.

The one thing I've got a curiosity of, if he teaches an equivalent of curbing/cry/moan sounds for soul, pop, or R&B singers? Rob, you have an extremely good method for operatic heavy metal/hard rock and you are very, very skilled at it, but I don't know if you teach these sounds? Me, I always aspired to something a bit more 60s rock or soul than metal and if I was a potential student of yours (health not currently permitting this), this would actually be a real question. I think I've seen D Starr wondering the same thing as he is an R&B pop kind of singer who is afraid you are too far into a a particular metal style to help him with. If you could prove you are good and open minded about teaching these sounds, it would likely expand your student base to include fringe cases, that weren't looking to be metal, hard rock, or operatic singers per say, but would love to benefit from your teaching.

Last edited by KillerKu (2011-12-30 15:37:22)

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#48 2011-12-30 16:35:46

jonpall
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Robert teaches soul, pop and R&B singers as well as metal singers, even though he doesn't use curbing/mixed voice.

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#49 2011-12-31 00:55:29

Robert Lunte
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Interesting, thanks for sharing guys....  KillerKu,  I understand what your saying in regards to the testimonials , however, in all honesty... the testimonials that I share on my web site and sometimes send out to prospective clients are real. I have been collecting them for almost 8 years, there is a huge list of them, about 10 pages, but I just collected them because I knew they might come in handy... in any regards, every testimonial on my web site at www.thevocaliststudio.com , is authentic.

Yes, its true, I do get hot headed sometimes and I keep trying to work on it... this comes a lot from my experience in the last 10 years working to build this practice... in my journey, I have met a LOT of teachers and companies... as the founder of the TC-Helicon Voice Council and TMV... I have had a unique view point where I have been able to really see the inner workings of certain vocal organizations and individuals... Im an "insider" and there are things that are being taught and that are going on in the business, that just drive us "insiders" crazy, but only confuses the consumers... Sometimes I get fet up with the messages that are being propagated to the market and myths that are creating problems for people because they are chalk full of wrong information... honestly, I really care about singers.. these people that are buying our books and I hate it when I see them being marketed too for the purpose of profits first, techniques and truth second.  I will say, most of the teachers and schools I have worked with are great, truly. But there are a couple that are, unfortunately, huge in their foot print that are hastening the progress of new techniques in the world.... anyways, i do my best to hold my tongue, but sometimes my instinct to just reach through the computer and "rescue" people from wasting their money and time gets the best of me.

The notion that TVS and what I am teaching can't be channeled to soul, pop and R&B is completely ridiculous. Here again, people confuse technique with style and genre'... when you see me demonstrate and its this HUGE "full throttle" sound, you need to understand, I am purposely driving my voice to its performance envelope. I am throttled to the firewall intentionally, because I want to show people the full potential of how far you can take it... and maybe show off a little bit too.  A big "boomy", full throttle "Robert-like" phonation can easily be lightened to suit other softer genres... of course! I'm just essentially, showing off and demonstrating the potential, I am not saying, this is the only kind of sound you can make...

As for vocal sounds that CVI would call "curbing" and "edge" and their vocal modes... TVS training puts you pretty much into the same exact configurations and overtones... we just have different names for it and a different way of getting into and out of it... TVS and CVI have a lot in common in how they teach and the end result... if there was a difference, I would tend to say that TVS leans more on training content... scales, video demonstrations... lots of content to help you learn how to TRAIN, where CVI is more about the book and understanding intellectually a bit deeper perhaps.  CVI may be stronger on science in their book currently, but TVS is stonger on real training content... however, as we speak... that is being addressed as Sir Fraser is currently proofing Pillars 2.0 and Ingo Titze is looking it over as well.

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#50 2011-12-31 01:33:59

ronws
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Re: Competing Methodology is driving me insane...

Well, the nice thing about 4 Pillars is not that you just read testimonials. Lunte's youtube channel has his students performing. And often, Lunte will link them into a thread, here. It's not just a matter of reading how someone benefited, you get to hear the result. And I am one of the lucky few to hear the result in person, no studio tricks, "running over the dog" in the garage. (Let me explain. Aaron and I were out in the garage trading licks and following scales. Evidently, to one family member, blasting a paint-peeling E5 is similar to the sound of dog being run over by a car. Well, darn it, you had to be there.)

Granted, in anything, especially something as precious as the voice, caveat emptor.

But, to connect to another point made, look at the students and their variety of styles. One sings metal and eerily sounds like Geoff Tate. Another sings country. Another sings theatrical musicals, without really any distortion. All from the same teacher. That is, the principles, and especially the basics of singing, are the same in all styles. I have even begun to appreciate that rap is a form of singing. It requires the same breathing and resonance and being on pitch. Is not R & B a style that uses soft onsets,  such as one might learn with the medium and light mass onsets?

Robert can teach you to sing like Steve Perry does. He cannot make you sound like Perry and it's never crossed him mind to even think about promising that. I think that is the hardest part I would encounter, if I could ever imaging teaching voice. Wading through the psychology of students looking for the magic pill that will make them sound exactly like this or that singer.

And another thing I like about Pillars 2.0 is that there is not a lot of new terms to learn. The talk track is basic, descriptive and clear, using terms and language an average reader already knows. And, at least for me, the images are right. For example, overlay distortion. The image implies that this is an action that is over, i.e., above the initial action, which is tone generation and the initial resonance just above the folds.

Now, sound like a testimonial, again. Anyway, I suppose it depends on each person and what language speaks to them. Yes, all the systems are teaching similar things and, in so many ways, it might as well be describe as "to-may-to, to-mah-to, po-tay-to, po-tah-to."

As for the thread title, competing terminology creating confusion (which can easily happen,) my advice is pick one. The one that is easiest for you to understand and accomplish what you wish. And stick with that. And don't worry about defending it. Just go with what is working for you. One that has a responsive feedback from the author. From what I understand, Lunte and Tamplin are neck and neck in that regard. Just a phone call away.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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