TMV Partners

You are not logged in.


Announcement

ATTENTION TMV WORLD FORUM MEMBERS!

AN ALL NEW TMV WORLD FORUM PLATFORM/SYSTEM IS COMING SOON! THE NEW SYSTEM WILL TAKE THE WORLD'S LARGEST AND MOST IMPORTANT FORUM FOR SINGING IN THE WORLD, TO A WHOLE NEW LEVEL OF SPEED, FEATURES AND "COOL-FACTOR"! MORE DETAILS COMING SOON...

#1 2011-04-27 02:07:24

NCdan
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-01-06
Posts: 115
Reputation :   

Singing with a rasp

I'm not sure what CVT refers to it as.  To me it is distortion with the least amount of air, more like a rich overdrive that only occasionally gets a bit of snarl to it.  But why is it so hard to do up high?  I can do it fine on middle notes and even lower notes.  But when I get up high it is like I lose 5 steps or so from my range.  I can hit high notes with lots of distortion, or "clean," but not with a raspy tone.  I can't even get close.  My voice just says, "Ummmm, no, we're not gonna try that note.  Feel free to sing that note with lots of distortion if you want, though."  Lol, very annoying.  What is the best way to practice getting up there with a raspy tone?  Should I build up my clean range?  I don't want to try to force it as I would probably really hurt myself since my vocal chords just seem to refuse to go up high when I sing with a rasp.

Offline

 

#2 2011-04-27 06:45:57

joshual
TMV Forum Member
From: Toulouse, France
Registered: 2009-01-23
Posts: 426
Reputation :   
Website

Re: Singing with a rasp

even if i have the cvt book, i can't help wihtout having a little sample of your voice ;-)... all this terms, distortion,rasp... can be a lot confusing... one thing i'm certain: put  the least amount of air when you try those effects. Usually, we always push too much and put too much air.

Offline

 

#3 2011-04-27 10:36:11

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Singing with a rasp

You're most likely either

a) pulling chest when you try to put rasp on high notes (in CVT terms that would mean you start in curbing on a high note - without rasp ... and then when you try to add rasp, you accidentally switch modes - from curbing to overdrive. Overdrive CAN be done on high notes but if you don't know what you're doing, I suggest that you don't do it, and even if you do, it's likely that you'd prefer the tonality of curbing)

... or ...

b) having your larynx too high. Actually, you might even have it too low (f.ex. overdoing the dopy sound from SLS), but that's not as common.

Offline

 

#4 2011-04-27 14:53:10

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Singing with a rasp

... or ...

c) squeezing your throat in order to create rasp. You need to try to relax every single muscle in your throat that doesn't need to be contracted to create the sound you want.

Offline

 

#5 2011-04-27 16:33:03

aldertate
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

Throw the cvt book in the trash, that's where it belongs.. lol..
find a quality teacher that will show you how to properly breath, and find a free, resonant sound. From there you can work up a proper way of handling the rasp/grit... ideally you'll have similar placement, but will engage your false vocal folds. I have plentiful examples (classical, rock/metal, strat notes) on my page. If you have any questions drop me a line. I'll be blunt, won't charge a dime, and will set you straight. :) I've almost got the passagio nailed down... just an issue of 'mindful space'
I don't use cvt, nor endorse silly terminology. If you want a book, get Caruso's book on singing. "Caruso's Method of Voice Production: The Scientific Culture of the Voice." Essentially the only book you'll ever need, and it's less that $15. lol
From a foundation of understanding, you'll be able to build your own style to suit your taste and desires. It ain't hard, ain't rocket science, and ain't worth more than the cost of a few beers. :)

Offline

 

#6 2011-04-27 17:23:30

John Henny
TMV Forum Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 29
Reputation :   
Website

Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

Throw the cvt book in the trash, that's where it belongs.. lol..
find a quality teacher that will show you how to properly breath, and find a free, resonant sound. From there you can work up a proper way of handling the rasp/grit... ideally you'll have similar placement, but will engage your false vocal folds. I have plentiful examples (classical, rock/metal, strat notes) on my page. If you have any questions drop me a line. I'll be blunt, won't charge a dime, and will set you straight. :) I've almost got the passagio nailed down... just an issue of 'mindful space'
I don't use cvt, nor endorse silly terminology. If you want a book, get Caruso's book on singing. "Caruso's Method of Voice Production: The Scientific Culture of the Voice." Essentially the only book you'll ever need, and it's less that $15. lol
From a foundation of understanding, you'll be able to build your own style to suit your taste and desires. It ain't hard, ain't rocket science, and ain't worth more than the cost of a few beers. :)

Ummm...are you trolling here?  I'll try and give you the benefit of the doubt. 

I don't understand why you would come to a forum dedicated to MODERN singing techniques, such as CVT, Singing Success, The Four Pillars, etc., and proceed to tell everyone that a highly regarded book belongs in the trash?  Then proceed to insist that a book from 1922 is the only one you will ever need?  Do you really wish to convince us that the last 90 years of vocal research and pedagogy is of no value?

You seem to have some great information to offer here, I just think you might want to rethink the way you present it.  I believe every system has at least something to offer and if I learn one thing of value then my investment in time and money has been rewarded. No one's earnest, hard work belongs in the trash.

Last edited by John Henny (2011-04-27 17:24:15)


My new studio website: www.gmhvocalstudio.com

Offline

 

#7 2011-04-27 18:16:36

aldertate
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

My humor doesn't always translate very well, and for that my apologies.

Research is a great too for explaining what happens, but I would temper embracing it as the sole form of teaching..  tail wagging the dog, rather than the dog wagging the tail.
A book teaching singing is like an audio book teaching a programming language. No book will ever replace a trained set of ears. No students will ever teach themselves how to safely navigate the passagio without a coach. The discussions about upper register issues tend to run high on grocky terminology, but short on the important issues;  the passagio is the key to singing, always has been, and always will be. Yet few bring that up when discussing the upper register work. But without that, the upper register will always be crippled, never fully free, never fully hooked up. The singer will never sing with their full instrument, but only a part of it.
That's not to say that research can't help identify/resolve medical issues, nor am I saying that reviewing formant patterns might help me, and others, handle vowel modifications better in the upper register. However, trained ears and sensory feedback are still, and will always be, the only way to learn to sing.
I'm all for singers learning to sing whatever style they choose to pursue, but singing is controlled breathing, and optimally it embraces freedom... as.. excessive tension always leads to problems.
The problem with these 'modern' courses.... is that they don't show what real freedom is... listen to my Handel clip... that's passagio work.. and some G4's.. not perfect, no. I'm quite aware of that, but I'm close to having that part of the voice worked out....then listen to the other stuff... vastly different styles, and techniques... but they're all built upon the same foundation. That's why I can do them. And that's how anyone who's serious about singing should pursue the craft. Build a solid foundation.
If I didn't have an understanding of the nuts and bolts then there's no way I would have been able to do all that other stuff without the distinct probability of damaging my voice.
For singers that don't care about the health of their instrument, that's not an issue... they can work it out in the trenches, but they'll be permanently damaging their instrument in the process.

The past 90 years have not resulted in a slew of present day Corellis, Bjorlings, or Wunderlichts... What does that say about it? Really, what does that say?

Last edited by aldertate (2011-04-27 18:18:02)

Offline

 

#8 2011-04-27 18:58:15

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Singing with a rasp

Studying Caruso might help with many things regarding singing, even the foundation for adding grit, but it won't help you learn how to do grit. You need something extra than just a vocal coach who can teach you Caruso's techniques.

Offline

 

#9 2011-04-27 19:10:28

geno
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-10-30
Posts: 2048
Reputation :   53 

Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate - do you have a web page where we can listen to you singing Handel?  I'm not sure I follow your logic at all.  First of all, the CVT book has hundreds of audio clips, which ARE sensory.  The book is written well and the text is surprisingly good, and together with the audio clips, it is pretty impactful.  The other thing is that every single "modern" program that I've seen mentioned on this forum offers one on one voice lessons.  None of them are limited to a book, an audio clip or a video.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you've truly examined the CVT approach before coming to your conclusion than that's great.  However, I would encourage you read Roberts forum rules before "trashing" modern vocal programs on this forum.

Offline

 

#10 2011-04-27 19:36:35

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate, although I will say that I think that CVT's methods of teaching rasp could actually be slightly improved (this is something I've thought a lot about for the past year or so), I know of many singers who studied CVT, both just with the book and also with an instructor - who managed to learn how to sing with rasp. And without problems. I also know many classical singers who've had a real problem singing rock and using rasp. Then I've heard the exact opposite. So your reasoning falls apart.

Offline

 

#11 2011-04-27 19:50:37

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7180
Reputation :   66 

Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

My humor doesn't always translate very well, and for that my apologies.

Research is a great too for explaining what happens, but I would temper embracing it as the sole form of teaching..  tail wagging the dog, rather than the dog wagging the tail.
A book teaching singing is like an audio book teaching a programming language. No book will ever replace a trained set of ears. No students will ever teach themselves how to safely navigate the passagio without a coach. The discussions about upper register issues tend to run high on grocky terminology, but short on the important issues;  the passagio is the key to singing, always has been, and always will be. Yet few bring that up when discussing the upper register work. But without that, the upper register will always be crippled, never fully free, never fully hooked up. The singer will never sing with their full instrument, but only a part of it.
That's not to say that research can't help identify/resolve medical issues, nor am I saying that reviewing formant patterns might help me, and others, handle vowel modifications better in the upper register. However, trained ears and sensory feedback are still, and will always be, the only way to learn to sing.
I'm all for singers learning to sing whatever style they choose to pursue, but singing is controlled breathing, and optimally it embraces freedom... as.. excessive tension always leads to problems.
The problem with these 'modern' courses.... is that they don't show what real freedom is... listen to my Handel clip... that's passagio work.. and some G4's.. not perfect, no. I'm quite aware of that, but I'm close to having that part of the voice worked out....then listen to the other stuff... vastly different styles, and techniques... but they're all built upon the same foundation. That's why I can do them. And that's how anyone who's serious about singing should pursue the craft. Build a solid foundation.
If I didn't have an understanding of the nuts and bolts then there's no way I would have been able to do all that other stuff without the distinct probability of damaging my voice.
For singers that don't care about the health of their instrument, that's not an issue... they can work it out in the trenches, but they'll be permanently damaging their instrument in the process.

The past 90 years have not resulted in a slew of present day Corellis, Bjorlings, or Wunderlichts... What does that say about it? Really, what does that say?

books, dvd's cd's, off line conversations all of that being grasped and applied properly depends on the individual. i personally can tell you they work. it would be great if i could afford one-on-one lessons but i simply can't.  believe me, sheer motivation can get you pretty far.

Offline

 

#12 2011-04-27 20:19:13

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3009
Reputation :   54 
Website

Re: Singing with a rasp

Thank you John.

aldertate....  Apart from the fact that you likely have never actually trained with CVT, Pillars, or any of these decent modern training programs to qualify your post for any kind of credibility, we simply do not make statements about tossing anyone's products made to help people learn how to sing better, "in the trash".

Categorically, there is not one training system discussed on this forum that deserves to be in the trash. Any person who takes the effort to make a contribution to the lexicon of understanding and ideas on how to sing, is a hero, an innovator and should be thanked for their effort to to try to help others learn how to sing better.

I agree with your point that learning to navigate the Passaggio is a big part of the story, hell... maybe its the most important thing in singing technique... but I happen to know that every training system discussed on this forum does a good job of helping people learn how to do that so claiming that only the ancients understood how to train Passaggio and modern training systems dont is just flat-out confirming for all of us that you really have never even read these books, let alone took any time to train it.

Please continue to make your contributions and share with us your experience and wisdom. Be the advocate for Bel Canto and old school singing techniques and values... that would be great, but please dont jump on this forum and claim that other training systems need to be in the trash.

Offline

 

#13 2011-04-28 01:04:59

NCdan
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-01-06
Posts: 115
Reputation :   

Re: Singing with a rasp

OK, I'll try to get a track laid down this weekend and post it so you guys can tell me how much I suck, lol.

:D

Offline

 

#14 2011-04-28 01:42:12

aldertate
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

jonpall wrote:

Studying Caruso might help with many things regarding singing, even the foundation for adding grit, but it won't help you learn how to do grit. You need something extra than just a vocal coach who can teach you Caruso's techniques.

By learning the foundation of singing you'll be able to figure it out on your own..

but more than that... you'll be able to utilize 100% of your voice, and will learn what real freedom feels like.. which is critical... If a singer can't navigate the passagio freely, with full resonance... they've never achieved full freedom... and their upper register (and passagio) will always be danger zones...

Last edited by aldertate (2011-04-28 01:44:15)

Offline

 

#15 2011-04-28 03:16:12

aldertate
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

Robert Lunte wrote:

Thank you John.

aldertate....  Apart from the fact that you likely have never actually trained with CVT, Pillars, or any of these decent modern training programs to qualify your post for any kind of credibility, we simply do not make statements about tossing anyone's products made to help people learn how to sing better, "in the trash".

Categorically, there is not one training system discussed on this forum that deserves to be in the trash. Any person who takes the effort to make a contribution to the lexicon of understanding and ideas on how to sing, is a hero, an innovator and should be thanked for their effort to to try to help others learn how to sing better.

I agree with your point that learning to navigate the Passaggio is a big part of the story, hell... maybe its the most important thing in singing technique... but I happen to know that every training system discussed on this forum does a good job of helping people learn how to do that so claiming that only the ancients understood how to train Passaggio and modern training systems dont is just flat-out confirming for all of us that you really have never even read these books, let alone took any time to train it.

Please continue to make your contributions and share with us your experience and wisdom. Be the advocate for Bel Canto and old school singing techniques and values... that would be great, but please dont jump on this forum and claim that other training systems need to be in the trash.

I respect the fact that in this modern age, with singers are openly embracing other styles, and that one can market a product, like cvt, in order to capitalize on this growth. HOWEVER... a foundation is a foundation.. 's (jazz, rock, metal, pop, etc... ) some sort of structured system could be useful in honing in on that...
But... without a solid foundation to build upon.. these tools will be used to build sounds on foundations of sand..

Now... with that being said.... people are always trying to make money, and in all honesty a system for rock singing is about as useful as a set of training videos on how to ride a bicycle.
Once a singer has a foundation in place, they can figure out on their own what they need to do in order to create a variety of sounds within the unique sonic landscape contained within their individual instrument.
No manual taught me how to sing the Rob Halford high notes, no manual taught me how to us various types of grit. I had a basic foundation, and by listening to the singers I enjoyed I was able to use my foundation to build the specific tools necessary in order to effectively create those sounds.

How much 'foundation' training a singer needs... really depends upon their individual goals.... what part of their voice are they wanting to emphasize when performing.. however, the more training the better off they'll be.

The passagio is a cold mistress. There's only one way to embrace her; anything else will crash and burn. But.. that embrace results in the one voice range... and that...is highly addicting... Today I was able to flip up freely through the passagio.... sang well over a dozen G4's, and at least half as many Bb4's.. which have the same sound quality as the G4, and those sounded better than the clip I posted.. Fxxxccckk it's taken a long time.  I had to completely stop singing rock over six months ago in order to learn the freedom to work through the passagio and obtain this sound. Up until then I'd been doing a dual thing... rock and classical... it was slow going.. I realized that unless one learns total freedom they will always be reinforcing tension in the voice.

Being able to learn to monitor the instrument, and being able to obtain a free sound.. that can be used as a reference point is highly critical.


Though... one thing needs to be mentioned since you've brought up CVT... Anette Olzon, the singer from Nightwish, is being coached by Catherine Sadolin... she lost her voice on tour. That shouldn't have happened.

Offline

 

#16 2011-04-28 03:57:19

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3009
Reputation :   54 
Website

Re: Singing with a rasp

You cant blame the nightwish singer's vocal problems on Cathrine Sadolin or CVT... thats absurd.  I hate it when the teacher becomes the "fall guy" for the artists inability to practice, get enough sleep, not do what they are suppose to be doing, eat junk food on the entire tour, smoke pot, drink alcohol and did I mention, not practice the things she is suppose to practice and not practice the things she is suppose to be doing!

I think your trying to make a good point, Im just not getting it?  Something about building a "foundation" or something... any of these popular and noteworthy "modern" vocal training systems you are referring to build foundations for singing.  Ill tell you right now, if your my student and studying TVS... your going to be doing onsets and sirens until your frickin blue in the face, until your sick of it...and then your going to do it again!  You couldnt find a better example of how to build "foundation" then the TVS onsets and sirens that are part of our program... thats what its there for.

I think you should get to know these programs better.

Back to answering NC's question:


NC, you have to first learn to bridge your registers, then you have to learn how to develop a configuration in the head voice so you can get great connectivity and formant (means "sounds good")... and then you can begin to work on what we call at TVS "Overlay" distortion.  I can teach you how to develop a healthier distortion on your high notes, but first... what I think is AlderTate's point.... you have to build a foundation of good bridging and head voice placements.  There is no short cut, there is not quick fix... you have to be willing to train to get there and you have to have the right techniques and teacher to guide you, period.

BTW AlderTATE... love the profile name... cool!

Offline

 

#17 2011-04-28 04:03:16

NCdan
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-01-06
Posts: 115
Reputation :   

Re: Singing with a rasp

NC, you have to first learn to bridge your registers, then you have to learn how to develop a configuration in the head voice so you can get great connectivity and formant (means "sounds good")... and then you can begin to work on what we call at TVS "Overlay" distortion. I can teach you how to develop a healthier distortion on your high notes, but first... what I think is AlderTate's point.... you have to build a foundation of good bridging and head voice placements. There is no short cut, there is not quick fix... you have to be willing to train to get there and you have to have the right techniques and teacher to guide you, period.

That makes sense.  My head voice is pretty wimpy right now.  I can sing in mixed voice, and that is what I always try to do now, but when I try to "rasp" on the high notes it feels like my vocal cords just lose traction.  Would you recommend practicing more in mixed voice or more in head voice?  Should I practice clean or with a rasp, especially on the high notes?  Thanks for your insight.

:D

Last edited by NCdan (2011-04-28 04:04:16)

Offline

 

#18 2011-04-28 05:58:55

Robert Lunte
TMV World Forum - Founder
From: Earth
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 3009
Reputation :   54 
Website

Re: Singing with a rasp

There is a lot of confusion in your post NC, Im just being honest with you.  But its not uncommon...  At TVS we dont mess around with the term "mixed voice", it just creates confusion with students of singing, they dont understand what it truly means. What do you think "mixed voice" means? Im not trying to put you on the spot, but what is it that you think that is?

While you ponder on what "mixed voice" really means, I will reiterate, you have to first train foundation, which is characterized by developing good bridging skills between your chest voice and your head voice. Once you have your bridging down, you then begin to refine your formant and essentially, your ability to sing in your head voice so that it doesnt sound "weak" as you say, but sounds big, boomy and full... THEN, you can begin to work on distortion, which you are calling "rasp"... call it distortion.  Part of learning how to do all of these techniques comes when you learn the language properly. If you dont know the the language to to describe at least most of these fundamental terms we use in voice technique, then you cant visualize the truth in your singing.  If you are using a term that doesnt really mean anything for real, then your body is going to try to make something happen that doesnt exist for real.

Im quite sure that if you were to train with me for 1 hour over the internet, we would discover that you need to work on calibrating the timing in your bridges, need work on locking in your formant, probably need to develop more muscle in your intrinsic anchoring and then... we could develop distortion that Im sure your probably trying to get at... what will take?  About 4-6 weeks of training... so the choice is yours.

Offline

 

#19 2011-04-28 09:41:37

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

No students will ever teach themselves how to safely navigate the passagio without a coach.

Such a thing has happened countless times.

Offline

 

#20 2011-04-28 09:48:03

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

jonpall wrote:

Studying Caruso might help with many things regarding singing, even the foundation for adding grit, but it won't help you learn how to do grit. You need something extra than just a vocal coach who can teach you Caruso's techniques.

By learning the foundation of singing you'll be able to figure it out on your own..

No.

Well, MAYBE, but it's much more likely that if you don't know how to do it, you'll get stuck and help would be most appreciated. Enter Vendera, Baxter, CVT, Lunte, Tamplin, etc.

I do agree with the statement that the foundation of your tone needs to be well produced to put rasp on top on, but there are TONS of vocal coaches other than Caruso specialists or even classical coaches, who can teach you this. Some are better than others.

Last edited by jonpall (2011-04-28 10:59:00)

Offline

 

#21 2011-04-28 10:40:43

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

The passagio is a cold mistress. There's only one way to embrace her; anything else will crash and burn. But.. that embrace results in the one voice range... and that...is highly addicting... Today I was able to flip up freely through the passagio.... sang well over a dozen G4's, and at least half as many Bb4's.. which have the same sound quality as the G4, and those sounded better than the clip I posted.. Fxxxccckk it's taken a long time.  I had to completely stop singing rock over six months ago in order to learn the freedom to work through the passagio and obtain this sound. Up until then I'd been doing a dual thing... rock and classical... it was slow going.. I realized that unless one learns total freedom they will always be reinforcing tension in the voice.

Ok, now I understand more where you're coming from and where you stand in your process of learning how to sing, or improve your singing. It's very common for people who are truthfully still in the early stages of learning how to sing to think that there is "only one way" to do something. With more experience you'll find that it's just not true. You might think you're very experienced because you've been doing this for many years, but your above paragraph proves otherwise. Don't be afraid and don't worry about that you won't one day learn how to sing the way you want to. You just need a bit more experience, even for an old guy, and a more open mind.

Offline

 

#22 2011-04-28 10:48:52

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Singing with a rasp

The bottom line is that not everyone has access to a good vocal coach, let alone someone who can teach you a great foundation for the passagio, let alone someone who can teach you how to sing with rasp. This is where books and videos like CVT and the Four pillars can help people. It would be better, sure, to be in direct contact with a great coach (which is why f.ex. CVT instructors and Robert offer Skype lessons), but for very many people, this is not an option (for many reasons).

Offline

 

#23 2011-04-28 10:56:09

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Singing with a rasp

Mixed voice:

It's very simple. Mixed voice is head voice with cry.

Not to be confused with vocal fry, but a cry or a moaning sound like you have a tummy ache.

Put in just the right amount of cry (which some people call "hold" and others call "cord compression") and you'll get a thicker/chestier sound than a pure head voice (some would call head voice "neutral"). And if it's the right amount of cry, most people won't even detect it. If you put in a bit more cry, it might sound too whiny and even constrict your throat. Mixed voice is also very, very similar to what some people would call curbing.

I'm guessing that the mixed voice type of thing doesn't blend too well in with the Four pillars because the Four pillars are based a lot on the Eh vowel (as in "egg") and I've heard from many different sources that putting a cry on top of the Eh vowel is difficult in the passagio and actually close to impossible if you go higher than that. So it makes a lot of sense that cry/curbing/mixed voice is not a part of the Four pillars. But it's quite ok. It just depends on what type of sound appeals to you. Some guys like the SLS sound. Other like classical singing. Some like metal singers like Geoff Tate. Others prefer Brian Johnson. It's apples and oranges - all very tasty, yet different and can live in harmony in the same fruit bowl.

Last edited by jonpall (2011-04-28 11:21:29)

Offline

 

#24 2011-04-28 17:03:31

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7180
Reputation :   66 

Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

jonpall wrote:

Studying Caruso might help with many things regarding singing, even the foundation for adding grit, but it won't help you learn how to do grit. You need something extra than just a vocal coach who can teach you Caruso's techniques.

By learning the foundation of singing you'll be able to figure it out on your own..
but more than that... you'll be able to utilize 100% of your voice, and will learn what real freedom feels like.. which is critical... If a singer can't navigate the passagio freely, with full resonance... they've never achieved full freedom... and their upper register (and passagio) will always be danger zones...

i think you just contradicted yourself aldertate....lol!!!!

Offline

 

#25 2011-04-28 22:42:24

Ronron
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-08-29
Posts: 308
Reputation :   

Re: Singing with a rasp

The passagio is a cold mistress. There's only one way to embrace her; anything else will crash and burn.

Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 ways to cross the passagio. Not all of them are musically appealing to everyone, sure. And there are more ways than what the top of my head can think of right now too.

Mixed voice is head voice with cry.

You know what ? I've been wondering about this for a while now. I was about to ask something around those lines, but now I've got my answer :)


Why aren't days 32 hours long ? <_<

Offline

 

#26 2011-04-28 22:58:09

NCdan
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-01-06
Posts: 115
Reputation :   

Re: Singing with a rasp

There is a lot of confusion in your post NC, Im just being honest with you. But its not uncommon... At TVS we dont mess around with the term "mixed voice", it just creates confusion with students of singing, they dont understand what it truly means. What do you think "mixed voice" means? Im not trying to put you on the spot, but what is it that you think that is?

While you ponder on what "mixed voice" really means, I will reiterate, you have to first train foundation, which is characterized by developing good bridging skills between your chest voice and your head voice. Once you have your bridging down, you then begin to refine your formant and essentially, your ability to sing in your head voice so that it doesnt sound "weak" as you say, but sounds big, boomy and full... THEN, you can begin to work on distortion, which you are calling "rasp"... call it distortion. Part of learning how to do all of these techniques comes when you learn the language properly. If you dont know the the language to to describe at least most of these fundamental terms we use in voice technique, then you cant visualize the truth in your singing. If you are using a term that doesnt really mean anything for real, then your body is going to try to make something happen that doesnt exist for real.

Im quite sure that if you were to train with me for 1 hour over the internet, we would discover that you need to work on calibrating the timing in your bridges, need work on locking in your formant, probably need to develop more muscle in your intrinsic anchoring and then... we could develop distortion that Im sure your probably trying to get at... what will take? About 4-6 weeks of training... so the choice is yours.

When I think mixed voice I think of mixing my chest and head pretty evenly.  My chest sounds too "soft" and "washed out" on it's own, and my head sounds like...  a really bad hair metal singer on it's own.  So, I combine the two.

You are right that I'm using distortion.  I didn't even realize what I was doing until I found that if I intensified the rasp, it went into distortion.  So, I guess singing with a rasp is singing with just a little bit of distortion?  Or at least that's how I do it.

My bridging is bad.  I can sometimes do sirens down without a break, but I always hit a break going up on a siren.  I can see that strengthening the... whatcha call it... the passagio?.. will help with bringing a rasp up into the area that I can't make a clean transition to on a siren.  I think my money is going into a supercardiod mic and/or a better preamp.  Besides, what self respecting punk rocker would take lessons, lol?  Thanks for the help, though.

:D

Offline

 

#27 2011-04-28 23:42:57

vocalpower
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-03-30
Posts: 45
Reputation :   

Re: Singing with a rasp

Rasp (or minor distortion) can be effected in a very simple manner! (Fact) However, it must be done with the support of a very good teacher to ensure that no damage is being done. This technique, although quite advanced, can be learned quickly and healthily in the hands of a good tutor!

Regards
Tony

Offline

 

#28 2011-04-29 09:21:48

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Singing with a rasp

Tony, then it sounds like you're saying that products like Jamie Vendera's "Raise your voice", the CVT book, Mark Baxter's "5 secrets of screaming", etc. don't work to teach rasp. I disagree. I disagree with the word "must" in "it must be done with the support of a very good teacher". I know of many people who have learned this soly from instructionals and are doing it in a healthy manner every day. I will say, however, that it has helped me a lot in the past, personally, to post audio examples of myself on this forum so that the more experienced people here could give me pointers - so that I knew that I was heading in the right direction. And that's where I KIND of agree with your statement. Peace.

Offline

 

#29 2011-04-29 10:37:40

vocalpower
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-03-30
Posts: 45
Reputation :   

Re: Singing with a rasp

jonpall

Excellent debate. You have highlighted the key here. Someone else (preferably a teacher) needs to hear your distortion production in order to confirm that you are doing it correctly and can therefore continue with your development. The three books you mentioned contain some excellent advice but I firmly believe that any progress made from following a manual should be confirmed by a professional. It's almost impossible to teach specifically without hearing a voice. One size does not fit all - we all have very different instruments. Kind regards, Tony

Offline

 

#30 2011-04-29 14:06:30

aldertate
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

VIDEOHERE wrote:

aldertate wrote:

jonpall wrote:

Studying Caruso might help with many things regarding singing, even the foundation for adding grit, but it won't help you learn how to do grit. You need something extra than just a vocal coach who can teach you Caruso's techniques.

By learning the foundation of singing you'll be able to figure it out on your own..
but more than that... you'll be able to utilize 100% of your voice, and will learn what real freedom feels like.. which is critical... If a singer can't navigate the passagio freely, with full resonance... they've never achieved full freedom... and their upper register (and passagio) will always be danger zones...

i think you just contradicted yourself aldertate....lol!!!!

LOL.. no.. no no no..


learning to sing through the passagio is tricky, and to do it with 100% of the capability of the voice is very challenging. Of course people can get through the passagio area in a number of ways (sirens, etc..), But... there's only one way that I've found that works with 100% of the instrument that contains full resonance and freedom. That's what I was referring to ronron, thanks for spinning that for me. lol
From that understanding... an awareness of the subtle nuances of the instrument are learned.
Caruso's work won't teach fvf techniques... it's a different end result. But.. .understanding how to achieve total freedom of sound allows one to make minor adjustments and create a myriad of soundscapes.


Regarding Nightwish's singer losing her voice.... Tarja is a classical student and is known for her live performance... Ann studied CVT with a renowned teacher.. and couldn't sing Tarja's parts. Before losing her voice this fact was well known from even her earliest concerts. When she lost her voice it was more of a question of inevitability than anything else.
Another singer Fabio Leone, is now singing with Kamelot. Before this he sang with Rhapsody (Rhapsody of Fire) and Athena. He's got classical chops, but has used them to create a lot of fascinating styles. He's an exciting singer, and is an example of the possibilities one can have when they have a solid foundation.

but like I've said, which has been confirmed by others here... a coach is critical.. No book is going teach someone how to sing. Once a foundation is established, a book may be helpful in discussing things that can be built upon this foundation.... I can't speak for others, however I don't think it's necessary. 
I had no book when I learned the various things I did in the rock style. it was all an issue of being mindful; mindful listening, mindful execution. In essence mindful playing.

Offline

 

#31 2011-04-29 14:25:09

aldertate
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

VIDEOHERE wrote:

books, dvd's cd's, off line conversations all of that being grasped and applied properly depends on the individual. i personally can tell you they work. it would be great if i could afford one-on-one lessons but i simply can't.  believe me, sheer motivation can get you pretty far.

I laud you for your commitment.. and here's something you can do that should help... contact the local churches in the area... often times they will pay singers to sing in the choir..  1 rehearsal, 1 Sunday morning performance that pays.. that should cover weekly or bi-weekly lessons. Not too mention, if you find the right church, the director might be able to give you lessons for free... or as a trade-off.
It's a good way to learn sight reading, and get experience. I've yet to find a city without a church lol.. so you should be in good shape....

Good luck with your training! You can learn some things on your own.. just be very mindful of your voice... give yourself plenty of 'down time' between practices. Learn the onsets of fatigue, and irritation. Those will be necessary in any field of voice you pursue... whether it be opera, art songs, or some crappy style... lmao..  hahaha... :) j/k (I'm a metal singer myself).

Offline

 

#32 2011-04-29 14:39:51

aldertate
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

vocalpower wrote:

jonpall

Excellent debate. You have highlighted the key here. Someone else (preferably a teacher) needs to hear your distortion production in order to confirm that you are doing it correctly and can therefore continue with your development. The three books you mentioned contain some excellent advice but I firmly believe that any progress made from following a manual should be confirmed by a professional. It's almost impossible to teach specifically without hearing a voice. One size does not fit all - we all have very different instruments. Kind regards, Tony

Exactly! The books could be quite useful in giving 'short cuts' that may help a singer start off on the right path.. but.. it's like an arrow pointing north with the text below it saying 'Raspy grit in the upper voice go this way'.. lol..
then again, at the same time.. when I recorded Wasted years... I wasn't singing with that grit.. it took 10 minutes to figure it out in the studio.. then.. boom... we were off to the races. Four hours later the session was done... the next night I sang a full set of maiden and it was a great concert.. which was also recorded..


Here's a page with a lot of crap on it.. lol..
http://www.themodernvocalist.com/profile/RussFriend
the handel stuff is from this week, working through the passagio (ugh! lol). Wasted Years is a professional recording. Two versions of Flight of the Icarus: demo and final.. one's clean (demo), while the other one's with grit. Both singing the C#5.. blah blah blah.. Road to Nowhere... created the style when I sang it in my little demo studio at home. Live and noisy is clips from Victim of Changes showing various fvf crap.. lol. .sadly the only recording I have of that song.. I really like that song hahaha..

No book was used in the creation of those styles.. unless one counts Playboy haha, One needs motivation!

Offline

 

#33 2011-04-29 14:44:52

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Singing with a rasp

Us cheap guys here learn from books and post clips of us screaming in the review section to know if we're correctly following the arrow to the north. Also note that there are some vocal coaches who say that they can teach rasp, but might not be really that great at it. Then there are others who are just world class. Everyone has to use their own judgement and their own brain to figure out what might work for them.

Last edited by jonpall (2011-04-29 14:45:41)

Offline

 

#34 2011-04-29 14:56:52

aldertate
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

jonpall wrote:

Us cheap guys here learn from books and post clips of us screaming in the review section to know if we're correctly following the arrow to the north. Also note that there are some vocal coaches who say that they can teach rasp, but might not be really that great at it. Then there are others who are just world class. Everyone has to use their own judgement and their own brain to figure out what might work for them.

Singing is a physical exercise, like football, baseball, and basketball, it requires great control over a specific set of muscles in order to achieve an objective.
How many professional athletes got that way without coaching? I can't think of any... can you?

Where there's a will to achieve there's a way to do it properly... ignore this at your own peril.

Last edited by aldertate (2011-04-29 14:58:41)

Offline

 

#35 2011-04-29 15:25:45

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Singing with a rasp

There are many similarities between singing and sports. Yet there are many things that are different. I understand what you're saying, but still... I COULD choose some vocal coach I have the feeling that could teach me how to improve my singing ... or, since I personally feel that I'm pretty CLOSE to achieving what I want - about 99% of it, I could hold on to my wallet and speak to my singing buddies, read books about the voice, experiment, sing live - and figure out the remaining 1% by myself. At my own peril.

Neither of those 2 methods are absolutely guaranteed to success - even if I work really hard at it. I have to work really hard at the RIGHT thing.

Offline

 

#36 2011-04-29 16:09:17

aldertate
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

jonpall wrote:

There are many similarities between singing and sports. Yet there are many things that are different. I understand what you're saying, but still... I COULD choose some vocal coach I have the feeling that could teach me how to improve my singing ... or, since I personally feel that I'm pretty CLOSE to achieving what I want - about 99% of it, I could hold on to my wallet and speak to my singing buddies, read books about the voice, experiment, sing live - and figure out the remaining 1% by myself. At my own peril.

Neither of those 2 methods are absolutely guaranteed to success - even if I work really hard at it. I have to work really hard at the RIGHT thing.

You're correct, neither of those methods are guaranteed to result in a successful career. But keep in mind the various qualities of training available. Look at what happened to Ann (Nightwish's new singer) after she not only worked with the book and consulted friends, but studied with a highly acclaimed CVT coach versus what a 'run of the mill' classical voice teacher did for Tarja (Nightwish's original singer). 
Tarja's going to be singing for a long time, doing whatever she wants to do.... Ann could never sing the repertoire properly.


Whatever your goals may be... pursue them with due diligence. To do otherwise would prevent you from fully sharing your gifts with the world. Why would anyone choose to handicap the very thing they're trying so hard to develop? Without mindful diligence you'll be keeping a part of your special, unique vocal artistry undeveloped... never to be shared with those who would greatly enjoy it. Never knowing just what you're fully capable of....
That's the tragedy with many of these courses, and why I view many of them with such disdain.



A teacher that talks about keeping an 'open throat' yet repeatedly sounds like a vacuum cleaner when taking a breath (a gasping one I might add), and showing off the great techniques of a certain course, doesn't really bode well for that system... it's rather comical, and I was lmao, until I realized how many people have fallen into the grips of this vocal dianetics. hahaha

Last edited by aldertate (2011-04-29 16:54:18)

Offline

 

#37 2011-04-29 17:11:42

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Singing with a rasp

Who is that vaccum cleaner?

Offline

 

#38 2011-04-29 18:05:37

aldertate
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cks0jOJ8 … re=related

I can feel my throat starts constricting sympathetically... lol..  I'm wheezing the more I watch.. must... press.... stop...


No, that's not right... vacuum cleaner.. gasp gasp gasp. .

a free breath is a silent breath. There isn't a silent breath at all during her singing... but.. when she speak it's silent.. cause it's relaxed, free, and open...lol.. hmmm.. interesting...

Last edited by aldertate (2011-04-29 18:06:31)

Offline

 

#39 2011-04-29 19:44:10

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7180
Reputation :   66 

Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

VIDEOHERE wrote:

books, dvd's cd's, off line conversations all of that being grasped and applied properly depends on the individual. i personally can tell you they work. it would be great if i could afford one-on-one lessons but i simply can't.  believe me, sheer motivation can get you pretty far.

I laud you for your commitment.. and here's something you can do that should help... contact the local churches in the area... often times they will pay singers to sing in the choir..  1 rehearsal, 1 Sunday morning performance that pays.. that should cover weekly or bi-weekly lessons. Not too mention, if you find the right church, the director might be able to give you lessons for free... or as a trade-off.
It's a good way to learn sight reading, and get experience. I've yet to find a city without a church lol.. so you should be in good shape....

Good luck with your training! You can learn some things on your own.. just be very mindful of your voice... give yourself plenty of 'down time' between practices. Learn the onsets of fatigue, and irritation. Those will be necessary in any field of voice you pursue... whether it be opera, art songs, or some crappy style... lmao..  hahaha... :) j/k (I'm a metal singer myself).

i have only been routinely exercising the voice for roughly 14-15 mos. between the books, cd's and dvd's, (many many of them) a handful of skype lessons, the forum, all of this, there exists a commonality of technique and methodology. collectively, i have learned to sing better than i ever have before.

would i be further along with a teacher? perhaps, but if you aren't doing the homework and the workouts you're wasting your money (and your time) i.m.h.o.

i think the biggest thing to all of this is it takes a lot of practise and time (even trial and error) if you're goal is professional level vocals.

Offline

 

#40 2011-04-29 21:54:21

vocalpower
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-03-30
Posts: 45
Reputation :   

Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

jonpall wrote:

There are many similarities between singing and sports. Yet there are many things that are different. I understand what you're saying, but still... I COULD choose some vocal coach I have the feeling that could teach me how to improve my singing ... or, since I personally feel that I'm pretty CLOSE to achieving what I want - about 99% of it, I could hold on to my wallet and speak to my singing buddies, read books about the voice, experiment, sing live - and figure out the remaining 1% by myself. At my own peril.

Neither of those 2 methods are absolutely guaranteed to success - even if I work really hard at it. I have to work really hard at the RIGHT thing.

You're correct, neither of those methods are guaranteed to result in a successful career. But keep in mind the various qualities of training available. Look at what happened to Ann (Nightwish's new singer) after she not only worked with the book and consulted friends, but studied with a highly acclaimed CVT coach versus what a 'run of the mill' classical voice teacher did for Tarja (Nightwish's original singer). 
Tarja's going to be singing for a long time, doing whatever she wants to do.... Ann could never sing the repertoire properly.


Whatever your goals may be... pursue them with due diligence. To do otherwise would prevent you from fully sharing your gifts with the world. Why would anyone choose to handicap the very thing they're trying so hard to develop? Without mindful diligence you'll be keeping a part of your special, unique vocal artistry undeveloped... never to be shared with those who would greatly enjoy it. Never knowing just what you're fully capable of....
That's the tragedy with many of these courses, and why I view many of them with such disdain.



A teacher that talks about keeping an 'open throat' yet repeatedly sounds like a vacuum cleaner when taking a breath (a gasping one I might add), and showing off the great techniques of a certain course, doesn't really bode well for that system... it's rather comical, and I was lmao, until I realized how many people have fallen into the grips of this vocal dianetics. hahaha

A great example. The whole technique/emotion thing is starting to annoy me on this forum. Far too much time is spent discussing the analytics of the voice. The voice is an instrument of expression (and secondarily) of communication. Be happy (loudly), Be sad (restrained), Be uninterested (easy for most of us). BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE enjoy the power of your own voice.

Last edited by vocalpower (2011-04-29 21:55:20)

Offline

 

#41 2011-04-29 22:08:35

vocalpower
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-03-30
Posts: 45
Reputation :   

Re: Singing with a rasp

Ouch - this thread is getting confusing?

All of the critiques of various systems are valid (somewhat). I posted my view that it is nearly impossible to gauge a singer's progress without hearing him/her. Singing lesson 101 - does it sound good?, does it move you?, does it move others?

Offline

 

#42 2011-04-30 17:04:28

aldertate
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

You guys are right..  the main point of singing is the ability to connect with the listener. Whatever a singer employs to accomplish that is a-ok.


a simple way of getting rasp in the upper register is this:

1. first be able to sing the notes cleanly.. by singing.. it can be nothing more than speaking on pitch, with that much volume.. that's what I did with Wasted Years.. when doing this.. a sensation of resonance should exist at/above the hard palate (roof of the mouth when doing this.. if it's back in the throat, or buzzing the nose... adjust it.
2. while maintaining that... slowly engage the fvf by... an easy way is to simply tense the back of your tongue slightly......do not sing louder and maintain the center of resonance at/above the hard palate. There will be a slight break in period as your instrument adjusts.. but after a very short period of time (a few minutes), you should be much more easily able to engage and disengage them at your whim. This time will grow shorter the more you utilize this. You'll find that it only takes a slight amount to get a great sound...
3. If you don't like the 'color' of the sound.. you can darken that slightly by adjusting the center of resonance... forward toward the nose creates a brighter sound (think French repertoire), back toward the throat creates a darker sound. Also extending your lips forward (Schwartzkoff called it the elephant)... works great in metal. Shifting vowels toward a more [o] (No) or [u] (you) work quite well.
I shifted vowels, and let the center slide back slightly.. .worked well.. but it's all a personal decision..


Have Fun And Be Mindful!

Offline

 

#43 2011-04-30 21:09:53

Ronron
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-08-29
Posts: 308
Reputation :   

Re: Singing with a rasp

1. first be able to sing the notes cleanly.. by singing.. it can be nothing more than speaking on pitch, with that much volume.. that's what I did with Wasted Years.. when doing this.. a sensation of resonance should exist at/above the hard palate (roof of the mouth when doing this.. if it's back in the throat, or buzzing the nose... adjust it.

Hard palate ? really ? The rest I mostly agree.


Why aren't days 32 hours long ? <_<

Offline

 

#44 2011-04-30 21:43:58

stew503
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-04-09
Posts: 158
Reputation :   

Re: Singing with a rasp

Hi,

Interesting thread - two themes - but I'll only slightly comment on one.  I have been wondering whether to post on this or not, I initially thought not to, but some of the common posters need to "understand" a little more in reference to this thread.

I am the "sit on the fence", non flavour person of the programs mentioned in the thread (as people know, AND are accepting of).  In each however; there "may be" a nugget of information and it is these nuggets that can make a program. 

In one program I do have (but do not use) - no names mentioned, the nugget is a 1 minute 20 second piece in the 4+ hours of information available.  I have costed it up to "coach" fee to teach the nugget and in "some coaches fees" (not mine) -it'll cost you MORE to learn that 1 minute 20 second of information than what the entire purchased program cost.

You (aldrertate) said, "it took 10 minutes to figure it out in the studio.. then.. boom... we were off to the races. Four hours later the session was done".  What was the cost of these 4 hours ?  Was it over the cost of "programs" mentioned".

I "could" sit down and "discuss" some of the current programs - I could say, in video "x", of coach "y" at 05:54, there is an error that is this "a, b, c".  However I don't as the overall programs have information that is useful to all.  One issue that you do see in a lot of programs is pulling chest up too high until it is straining (you can see this in program "a", youtube video "b", time "cc:dd:ee") without adequate training of an upper voice.
One thing I deal with (frequently) is having two seperate registers, and chest voice "WAY" too high, I have commented on this and have stated that in one thread; for the CVT guys to continue the thread (as it would have been not appropriate for me in my world to interfere with a person studying the CVT program), I will however advise.

You refer to CVT.  I have never seen CVT, but know several whom use it.  CVT has something important and that .. is a sound library. 
It says - if you can make noise "x" in passage "y", with twang / overdrive / whatever "z" - this'll happen ... And to thousands of people - it has worked (and in this forum has produced some great singers - some of whom I advise).  And .. I covers more languages then most of classical world.
To those whom just don't quite get it in both CVT or Lunte's world (also includes Tamplin) - they post either on the CVT forum or this one.  The people on here have an abundance of information covering schools of classical, rock, R&B, screamers, and whatever other gendre to can think of as well as every program imaginable.

I ACTUALLY would like to study CVT, 4 Pillars (so - coaches, please send a copy to me so I can study what you have to offer (and as a member of the forum - this may be appropriate - (I dont know if those in the upper echilons (especially in CVT world) look into this forum - if so - consider and send))) and see what nuggets of information that they have too.  As people have said, both programs have a skype medium and Robert has EVEN offered the occasional free 1/2 hour.  Now you CANNOT complain against that.

I have mentioned in another thread about "breath management" and; YES, one thing that DOES need to put into  the respective programs is more of a common language across the programs.  This would fix a myriad of missunderstanding.

.

You refer to Caruso's book - you actually mean the Mario Marafioti (M.D) - book - btw - it's public domain and available from;
http://www.archive.org/details/carusosm … 00marauoft
You also state, "Anette Olzon, the singer from Nightwish, is being coached by Catherine Sadolin... she lost her voice on tour. That shouldn't have happened"
... hmmm ... just as Vergine using his method should not have created the broken tenor ?.  There is reams of text and "other forum" information about this on whether it was Caruso or Vergine fault - So I would be careful about what is said (as Robert has stated in previous text).
I also see that in Marafioti's book it refers to Lyric Soprano "a", who's voice was ruined by coloratura coach "b" (THUS - you could say the same that "some" coaches even in classical world ruin voices too; not only programs); but the book does not refer to Vergine.
So you could talk about "good" coaches ... There are too many "average ones" (another beef of mine!!!) .. refered to later in text.
You refer to the book - however you can also see some "parallels" between the .."Principles". as referred to in the "book" mentioned. to some very well known programs too! (SLS, SS .. etc)
..
I see text in the Caruso book mentioned, "Singing teachers know very little about the science of voice, ....", This is an excellent statement as there are FAR too many bad to below average coaches;  Far too many !!!- Thus your reference to go out and get a coach can be fraught with many problems, so you can see why some music programs (such as those mentioned) are more useful.  Also ... on various programs, there are people in classical world working with the coaches (such as Steven), who's work on Vowel mod has been incorporated into Robert's program.

I could ask how is your fluency in Italian ?, especially if English is such a flawed language (Page 209 of stated book), "Therefore, since English is phonetically rather a difficult language, in some instances made more so by inherited bad habits"

I'm actually interested why you chose Caruso and say .. not Garcia.  I have found some of Garcia's work to be excellent and is valuable, especially in my teaching.

I also saw last post (they are coming quick and fast), this, "How many professional athletes got that way without coaching? I can't think of any... can you?" ..  We could discuss - how many had the talent to begin with ... shall we discuss Lind at 9 y/o ? (natural tallent)

The thread has moved on, but thought I'de post - I thought some ... "others" may post - possibly staying the safe mode ... But i MUST say, I applaud some of JP / Bob's posts.

Stewart

p.s. JP - We need to talk as I did comment on your comment (and singing post), although it is older post now.
p.p.s. Ron - 3 ways top of head .. was thinking about this - a few more maybe :)

edited for slight typo

Last edited by stew503 (2011-04-30 22:44:20)

Offline

 

#45 2011-04-30 23:35:19

vocalpower
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-03-30
Posts: 45
Reputation :   

Re: Singing with a rasp

Most of the sounds that we are now trying to recreate were inherent to us as babies. The cry, the call and the correct use of the diaphragm and abdominal muscles came completely naturally. We have been conditioned (unfortunately) to suppress our natural instincts (be quiet, keep your voice down, not so loud etc...) As a very simple exercise, imagine that one of your loved ones ran across the road in front of an oncoming car. You would be able to generate the loudest, most natural, cry. The vocal mechanism is built in - what we need to do is stay out of the way technically and let it flow :)

Offline

 

#46 2011-05-01 01:17:25

aldertate
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

You (aldrertate) said, "it took 10 minutes to figure it out in the studio.. then.. boom... we were off to the races. Four hours later the session was done".  What was the cost of these 4 hours ?  Was it over the cost of "programs" mentioned".

Oh. I was in a recording studio.. there was no training cost. That's my point. :) it took 10 minutes to figure out.. that's all.. si parla si canta


It seems that the terminology is purposely muddy... they can't sound like they're the formal classical training.. or else why would anyone break from the proper course of study a revolutionary system? There's the rub, though.. without the basics all the 'revolutionary' aspects are going to be built on a weak foundation..

Garcia doesn't address the upper register like Caruso.. remember... Caruso's renowned for elevating the tenor fach.... I like Garcia's treatise on singing.. it covers the basics of singing quite well.

Offline

 

#47 2011-05-01 02:23:57

geno
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-10-30
Posts: 2048
Reputation :   53 

Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

a free breath is a silent breath.

That may be true for classical singing.  But I've been intentionally putting audible breaths in my rock recordings and I use them as a stylistic rhythmic device.  For a classical piece I wouldn't do it, but for pop rock - yes.  I think it sounds cool and natural.  To me the phrase starts with the intake of breath, and I practice making sure my breath starts "in rhythm".  Maybe it's not for everyone, but I'll analyze an entire performance making sure the breaths are in rhythm and sound right.

Offline

 

#48 2011-05-01 11:53:28

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Singing with a rasp

Stewart - that sounds good, but I didn't see any comment in that thread of mine where you were helping me out. If you want, you can always just send me an email at j_g_thorarinsson@hotmail.com or just post it here.

Offline

 

#49 2011-05-01 12:26:26

aldertate
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

guitartrek wrote:

aldertate wrote:

a free breath is a silent breath.

That may be true for classical singing.  But I've been intentionally putting audible breaths in my rock recordings and I use them as a stylistic rhythmic device.  For a classical piece I wouldn't do it, but for pop rock - yes.  I think it sounds cool and natural.  To me the phrase starts with the intake of breath, and I practice making sure my breath starts "in rhythm".  Maybe it's not for everyone, but I'll analyze an entire performance making sure the breaths are in rhythm and sound right.

that's fine, but understand that an audible breath has tension..  if you're talking about making conscious decisions where to breath, that's standard.. everyone does that.. if you're talking about making sure to take the appropriate amount of breath for the line... again... standard...  if you're talking about putting an audible sound in your breathing.. that's a conscious decision... one that involves tension..

this is why muddy terminology is so annoying...and why so many people think they're reinventing the wheel when they're really talking about aspects of voice that are taught to all beginning students.


Anyways.. this is off topic for the thread..

Offline

 

#50 2011-05-01 15:31:55

geno
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-10-30
Posts: 2048
Reputation :   53 

Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

that's fine, but understand that an audible breath has tension..

Sorry to wander off topic a bit, and I don't mean to be argumentative, but I can create an audible breath sound easily with my lips by just keeping my mouth open slightly and relaxed.  The air moving past the lips and tongue - and some breath comes in through the nose - creates a slight audible vibration and the throat is totally relaxed - there is no tension.  I know that this is not the Caruso way or the standard classical way.

Offline

 
OTHER TMV WEB SITES: TMV RECOMMENDS: TMV RECOMMENDS: TMV RECOMMENDS:

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB
Hosted by PunBB-Hosting