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#1 2011-04-27 02:07:24

NCdan
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Singing with a rasp

I'm not sure what CVT refers to it as.  To me it is distortion with the least amount of air, more like a rich overdrive that only occasionally gets a bit of snarl to it.  But why is it so hard to do up high?  I can do it fine on middle notes and even lower notes.  But when I get up high it is like I lose 5 steps or so from my range.  I can hit high notes with lots of distortion, or "clean," but not with a raspy tone.  I can't even get close.  My voice just says, "Ummmm, no, we're not gonna try that note.  Feel free to sing that note with lots of distortion if you want, though."  Lol, very annoying.  What is the best way to practice getting up there with a raspy tone?  Should I build up my clean range?  I don't want to try to force it as I would probably really hurt myself since my vocal chords just seem to refuse to go up high when I sing with a rasp.

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#2 2011-04-27 06:45:57

joshual
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Re: Singing with a rasp

even if i have the cvt book, i can't help wihtout having a little sample of your voice ;-)... all this terms, distortion,rasp... can be a lot confusing... one thing i'm certain: put  the least amount of air when you try those effects. Usually, we always push too much and put too much air.

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#3 2011-04-27 10:36:11

jonpall
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Re: Singing with a rasp

You're most likely either

a) pulling chest when you try to put rasp on high notes (in CVT terms that would mean you start in curbing on a high note - without rasp ... and then when you try to add rasp, you accidentally switch modes - from curbing to overdrive. Overdrive CAN be done on high notes but if you don't know what you're doing, I suggest that you don't do it, and even if you do, it's likely that you'd prefer the tonality of curbing)

... or ...

b) having your larynx too high. Actually, you might even have it too low (f.ex. overdoing the dopy sound from SLS), but that's not as common.

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#4 2011-04-27 14:53:10

jonpall
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Re: Singing with a rasp

... or ...

c) squeezing your throat in order to create rasp. You need to try to relax every single muscle in your throat that doesn't need to be contracted to create the sound you want.

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#5 2011-04-27 16:33:03

aldertate
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Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

Throw the cvt book in the trash, that's where it belongs.. lol..
find a quality teacher that will show you how to properly breath, and find a free, resonant sound. From there you can work up a proper way of handling the rasp/grit... ideally you'll have similar placement, but will engage your false vocal folds. I have plentiful examples (classical, rock/metal, strat notes) on my page. If you have any questions drop me a line. I'll be blunt, won't charge a dime, and will set you straight. :) I've almost got the passagio nailed down... just an issue of 'mindful space'
I don't use cvt, nor endorse silly terminology. If you want a book, get Caruso's book on singing. "Caruso's Method of Voice Production: The Scientific Culture of the Voice." Essentially the only book you'll ever need, and it's less that $15. lol
From a foundation of understanding, you'll be able to build your own style to suit your taste and desires. It ain't hard, ain't rocket science, and ain't worth more than the cost of a few beers. :)

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#6 2011-04-27 17:23:30

John Henny
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Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

Throw the cvt book in the trash, that's where it belongs.. lol..
find a quality teacher that will show you how to properly breath, and find a free, resonant sound. From there you can work up a proper way of handling the rasp/grit... ideally you'll have similar placement, but will engage your false vocal folds. I have plentiful examples (classical, rock/metal, strat notes) on my page. If you have any questions drop me a line. I'll be blunt, won't charge a dime, and will set you straight. :) I've almost got the passagio nailed down... just an issue of 'mindful space'
I don't use cvt, nor endorse silly terminology. If you want a book, get Caruso's book on singing. "Caruso's Method of Voice Production: The Scientific Culture of the Voice." Essentially the only book you'll ever need, and it's less that $15. lol
From a foundation of understanding, you'll be able to build your own style to suit your taste and desires. It ain't hard, ain't rocket science, and ain't worth more than the cost of a few beers. :)

Ummm...are you trolling here?  I'll try and give you the benefit of the doubt. 

I don't understand why you would come to a forum dedicated to MODERN singing techniques, such as CVT, Singing Success, The Four Pillars, etc., and proceed to tell everyone that a highly regarded book belongs in the trash?  Then proceed to insist that a book from 1922 is the only one you will ever need?  Do you really wish to convince us that the last 90 years of vocal research and pedagogy is of no value?

You seem to have some great information to offer here, I just think you might want to rethink the way you present it.  I believe every system has at least something to offer and if I learn one thing of value then my investment in time and money has been rewarded. No one's earnest, hard work belongs in the trash.

Last edited by John Henny (2011-04-27 17:24:15)


My new studio website: www.gmhvocalstudio.com

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#7 2011-04-27 18:16:36

aldertate
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Re: Singing with a rasp

My humor doesn't always translate very well, and for that my apologies.

Research is a great too for explaining what happens, but I would temper embracing it as the sole form of teaching..  tail wagging the dog, rather than the dog wagging the tail.
A book teaching singing is like an audio book teaching a programming language. No book will ever replace a trained set of ears. No students will ever teach themselves how to safely navigate the passagio without a coach. The discussions about upper register issues tend to run high on grocky terminology, but short on the important issues;  the passagio is the key to singing, always has been, and always will be. Yet few bring that up when discussing the upper register work. But without that, the upper register will always be crippled, never fully free, never fully hooked up. The singer will never sing with their full instrument, but only a part of it.
That's not to say that research can't help identify/resolve medical issues, nor am I saying that reviewing formant patterns might help me, and others, handle vowel modifications better in the upper register. However, trained ears and sensory feedback are still, and will always be, the only way to learn to sing.
I'm all for singers learning to sing whatever style they choose to pursue, but singing is controlled breathing, and optimally it embraces freedom... as.. excessive tension always leads to problems.
The problem with these 'modern' courses.... is that they don't show what real freedom is... listen to my Handel clip... that's passagio work.. and some G4's.. not perfect, no. I'm quite aware of that, but I'm close to having that part of the voice worked out....then listen to the other stuff... vastly different styles, and techniques... but they're all built upon the same foundation. That's why I can do them. And that's how anyone who's serious about singing should pursue the craft. Build a solid foundation.
If I didn't have an understanding of the nuts and bolts then there's no way I would have been able to do all that other stuff without the distinct probability of damaging my voice.
For singers that don't care about the health of their instrument, that's not an issue... they can work it out in the trenches, but they'll be permanently damaging their instrument in the process.

The past 90 years have not resulted in a slew of present day Corellis, Bjorlings, or Wunderlichts... What does that say about it? Really, what does that say?

Last edited by aldertate (2011-04-27 18:18:02)

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#8 2011-04-27 18:58:15

jonpall
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Re: Singing with a rasp

Studying Caruso might help with many things regarding singing, even the foundation for adding grit, but it won't help you learn how to do grit. You need something extra than just a vocal coach who can teach you Caruso's techniques.

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#9 2011-04-27 19:10:28

geno
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Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate - do you have a web page where we can listen to you singing Handel?  I'm not sure I follow your logic at all.  First of all, the CVT book has hundreds of audio clips, which ARE sensory.  The book is written well and the text is surprisingly good, and together with the audio clips, it is pretty impactful.  The other thing is that every single "modern" program that I've seen mentioned on this forum offers one on one voice lessons.  None of them are limited to a book, an audio clip or a video.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you've truly examined the CVT approach before coming to your conclusion than that's great.  However, I would encourage you read Roberts forum rules before "trashing" modern vocal programs on this forum.

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#10 2011-04-27 19:36:35

jonpall
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Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate, although I will say that I think that CVT's methods of teaching rasp could actually be slightly improved (this is something I've thought a lot about for the past year or so), I know of many singers who studied CVT, both just with the book and also with an instructor - who managed to learn how to sing with rasp. And without problems. I also know many classical singers who've had a real problem singing rock and using rasp. Then I've heard the exact opposite. So your reasoning falls apart.

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#11 2011-04-27 19:50:37

VIDEOHERE
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Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

My humor doesn't always translate very well, and for that my apologies.

Research is a great too for explaining what happens, but I would temper embracing it as the sole form of teaching..  tail wagging the dog, rather than the dog wagging the tail.
A book teaching singing is like an audio book teaching a programming language. No book will ever replace a trained set of ears. No students will ever teach themselves how to safely navigate the passagio without a coach. The discussions about upper register issues tend to run high on grocky terminology, but short on the important issues;  the passagio is the key to singing, always has been, and always will be. Yet few bring that up when discussing the upper register work. But without that, the upper register will always be crippled, never fully free, never fully hooked up. The singer will never sing with their full instrument, but only a part of it.
That's not to say that research can't help identify/resolve medical issues, nor am I saying that reviewing formant patterns might help me, and others, handle vowel modifications better in the upper register. However, trained ears and sensory feedback are still, and will always be, the only way to learn to sing.
I'm all for singers learning to sing whatever style they choose to pursue, but singing is controlled breathing, and optimally it embraces freedom... as.. excessive tension always leads to problems.
The problem with these 'modern' courses.... is that they don't show what real freedom is... listen to my Handel clip... that's passagio work.. and some G4's.. not perfect, no. I'm quite aware of that, but I'm close to having that part of the voice worked out....then listen to the other stuff... vastly different styles, and techniques... but they're all built upon the same foundation. That's why I can do them. And that's how anyone who's serious about singing should pursue the craft. Build a solid foundation.
If I didn't have an understanding of the nuts and bolts then there's no way I would have been able to do all that other stuff without the distinct probability of damaging my voice.
For singers that don't care about the health of their instrument, that's not an issue... they can work it out in the trenches, but they'll be permanently damaging their instrument in the process.

The past 90 years have not resulted in a slew of present day Corellis, Bjorlings, or Wunderlichts... What does that say about it? Really, what does that say?

books, dvd's cd's, off line conversations all of that being grasped and applied properly depends on the individual. i personally can tell you they work. it would be great if i could afford one-on-one lessons but i simply can't.  believe me, sheer motivation can get you pretty far.

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#12 2011-04-27 20:19:13

Robert Lunte
The Modern Vocalist World.com Guy
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Re: Singing with a rasp

Thank you John.

aldertate....  Apart from the fact that you likely have never actually trained with CVT, Pillars, or any of these decent modern training programs to qualify your post for any kind of credibility, we simply do not make statements about tossing anyone's products made to help people learn how to sing better, "in the trash".

Categorically, there is not one training system discussed on this forum that deserves to be in the trash. Any person who takes the effort to make a contribution to the lexicon of understanding and ideas on how to sing, is a hero, an innovator and should be thanked for their effort to to try to help others learn how to sing better.

I agree with your point that learning to navigate the Passaggio is a big part of the story, hell... maybe its the most important thing in singing technique... but I happen to know that every training system discussed on this forum does a good job of helping people learn how to do that so claiming that only the ancients understood how to train Passaggio and modern training systems dont is just flat-out confirming for all of us that you really have never even read these books, let alone took any time to train it.

Please continue to make your contributions and share with us your experience and wisdom. Be the advocate for Bel Canto and old school singing techniques and values... that would be great, but please dont jump on this forum and claim that other training systems need to be in the trash.

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#13 2011-04-28 01:04:59

NCdan
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Re: Singing with a rasp

OK, I'll try to get a track laid down this weekend and post it so you guys can tell me how much I suck, lol.

:D

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#14 2011-04-28 01:42:12

aldertate
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Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

jonpall wrote:

Studying Caruso might help with many things regarding singing, even the foundation for adding grit, but it won't help you learn how to do grit. You need something extra than just a vocal coach who can teach you Caruso's techniques.

By learning the foundation of singing you'll be able to figure it out on your own..

but more than that... you'll be able to utilize 100% of your voice, and will learn what real freedom feels like.. which is critical... If a singer can't navigate the passagio freely, with full resonance... they've never achieved full freedom... and their upper register (and passagio) will always be danger zones...

Last edited by aldertate (2011-04-28 01:44:15)

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#15 2011-04-28 03:16:12

aldertate
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Registered: 2010-04-19
Posts: 88

Re: Singing with a rasp

Robert Lunte wrote:

Thank you John.

aldertate....  Apart from the fact that you likely have never actually trained with CVT, Pillars, or any of these decent modern training programs to qualify your post for any kind of credibility, we simply do not make statements about tossing anyone's products made to help people learn how to sing better, "in the trash".

Categorically, there is not one training system discussed on this forum that deserves to be in the trash. Any person who takes the effort to make a contribution to the lexicon of understanding and ideas on how to sing, is a hero, an innovator and should be thanked for their effort to to try to help others learn how to sing better.

I agree with your point that learning to navigate the Passaggio is a big part of the story, hell... maybe its the most important thing in singing technique... but I happen to know that every training system discussed on this forum does a good job of helping people learn how to do that so claiming that only the ancients understood how to train Passaggio and modern training systems dont is just flat-out confirming for all of us that you really have never even read these books, let alone took any time to train it.

Please continue to make your contributions and share with us your experience and wisdom. Be the advocate for Bel Canto and old school singing techniques and values... that would be great, but please dont jump on this forum and claim that other training systems need to be in the trash.

I respect the fact that in this modern age, with singers are openly embracing other styles, and that one can market a product, like cvt, in order to capitalize on this growth. HOWEVER... a foundation is a foundation.. 's (jazz, rock, metal, pop, etc... ) some sort of structured system could be useful in honing in on that...
But... without a solid foundation to build upon.. these tools will be used to build sounds on foundations of sand..

Now... with that being said.... people are always trying to make money, and in all honesty a system for rock singing is about as useful as a set of training videos on how to ride a bicycle.
Once a singer has a foundation in place, they can figure out on their own what they need to do in order to create a variety of sounds within the unique sonic landscape contained within their individual instrument.
No manual taught me how to sing the Rob Halford high notes, no manual taught me how to us various types of grit. I had a basic foundation, and by listening to the singers I enjoyed I was able to use my foundation to build the specific tools necessary in order to effectively create those sounds.

How much 'foundation' training a singer needs... really depends upon their individual goals.... what part of their voice are they wanting to emphasize when performing.. however, the more training the better off they'll be.

The passagio is a cold mistress. There's only one way to embrace her; anything else will crash and burn. But.. that embrace results in the one voice range... and that...is highly addicting... Today I was able to flip up freely through the passagio.... sang well over a dozen G4's, and at least half as many Bb4's.. which have the same sound quality as the G4, and those sounded better than the clip I posted.. Fxxxccckk it's taken a long time.  I had to completely stop singing rock over six months ago in order to learn the freedom to work through the passagio and obtain this sound. Up until then I'd been doing a dual thing... rock and classical... it was slow going.. I realized that unless one learns total freedom they will always be reinforcing tension in the voice.

Being able to learn to monitor the instrument, and being able to obtain a free sound.. that can be used as a reference point is highly critical.


Though... one thing needs to be mentioned since you've brought up CVT... Anette Olzon, the singer from Nightwish, is being coached by Catherine Sadolin... she lost her voice on tour. That shouldn't have happened.

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#16 2011-04-28 03:57:19

Robert Lunte
The Modern Vocalist World.com Guy
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Registered: 2008-11-08
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Re: Singing with a rasp

You cant blame the nightwish singer's vocal problems on Cathrine Sadolin or CVT... thats absurd.  I hate it when the teacher becomes the "fall guy" for the artists inability to practice, get enough sleep, not do what they are suppose to be doing, eat junk food on the entire tour, smoke pot, drink alcohol and did I mention, not practice the things she is suppose to practice and not practice the things she is suppose to be doing!

I think your trying to make a good point, Im just not getting it?  Something about building a "foundation" or something... any of these popular and noteworthy "modern" vocal training systems you are referring to build foundations for singing.  Ill tell you right now, if your my student and studying TVS... your going to be doing onsets and sirens until your frickin blue in the face, until your sick of it...and then your going to do it again!  You couldnt find a better example of how to build "foundation" then the TVS onsets and sirens that are part of our program... thats what its there for.

I think you should get to know these programs better.

Back to answering NC's question:


NC, you have to first learn to bridge your registers, then you have to learn how to develop a configuration in the head voice so you can get great connectivity and formant (means "sounds good")... and then you can begin to work on what we call at TVS "Overlay" distortion.  I can teach you how to develop a healthier distortion on your high notes, but first... what I think is AlderTate's point.... you have to build a foundation of good bridging and head voice placements.  There is no short cut, there is not quick fix... you have to be willing to train to get there and you have to have the right techniques and teacher to guide you, period.

BTW AlderTATE... love the profile name... cool!

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#17 2011-04-28 04:03:16

NCdan
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Re: Singing with a rasp

NC, you have to first learn to bridge your registers, then you have to learn how to develop a configuration in the head voice so you can get great connectivity and formant (means "sounds good")... and then you can begin to work on what we call at TVS "Overlay" distortion. I can teach you how to develop a healthier distortion on your high notes, but first... what I think is AlderTate's point.... you have to build a foundation of good bridging and head voice placements. There is no short cut, there is not quick fix... you have to be willing to train to get there and you have to have the right techniques and teacher to guide you, period.

That makes sense.  My head voice is pretty wimpy right now.  I can sing in mixed voice, and that is what I always try to do now, but when I try to "rasp" on the high notes it feels like my vocal cords just lose traction.  Would you recommend practicing more in mixed voice or more in head voice?  Should I practice clean or with a rasp, especially on the high notes?  Thanks for your insight.

:D

Last edited by NCdan (2011-04-28 04:04:16)

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#18 2011-04-28 05:58:55

Robert Lunte
The Modern Vocalist World.com Guy
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Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 2646
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Re: Singing with a rasp

There is a lot of confusion in your post NC, Im just being honest with you.  But its not uncommon...  At TVS we dont mess around with the term "mixed voice", it just creates confusion with students of singing, they dont understand what it truly means. What do you think "mixed voice" means? Im not trying to put you on the spot, but what is it that you think that is?

While you ponder on what "mixed voice" really means, I will reiterate, you have to first train foundation, which is characterized by developing good bridging skills between your chest voice and your head voice. Once you have your bridging down, you then begin to refine your formant and essentially, your ability to sing in your head voice so that it doesnt sound "weak" as you say, but sounds big, boomy and full... THEN, you can begin to work on distortion, which you are calling "rasp"... call it distortion.  Part of learning how to do all of these techniques comes when you learn the language properly. If you dont know the the language to to describe at least most of these fundamental terms we use in voice technique, then you cant visualize the truth in your singing.  If you are using a term that doesnt really mean anything for real, then your body is going to try to make something happen that doesnt exist for real.

Im quite sure that if you were to train with me for 1 hour over the internet, we would discover that you need to work on calibrating the timing in your bridges, need work on locking in your formant, probably need to develop more muscle in your intrinsic anchoring and then... we could develop distortion that Im sure your probably trying to get at... what will take?  About 4-6 weeks of training... so the choice is yours.

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#19 2011-04-28 09:41:37

jonpall
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Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2815
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Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

No students will ever teach themselves how to safely navigate the passagio without a coach.

Such a thing has happened countless times.

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#20 2011-04-28 09:48:03

jonpall
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Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2815
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Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

jonpall wrote:

Studying Caruso might help with many things regarding singing, even the foundation for adding grit, but it won't help you learn how to do grit. You need something extra than just a vocal coach who can teach you Caruso's techniques.

By learning the foundation of singing you'll be able to figure it out on your own..

No.

Well, MAYBE, but it's much more likely that if you don't know how to do it, you'll get stuck and help would be most appreciated. Enter Vendera, Baxter, CVT, Lunte, Tamplin, etc.

I do agree with the statement that the foundation of your tone needs to be well produced to put rasp on top on, but there are TONS of vocal coaches other than Caruso specialists or even classical coaches, who can teach you this. Some are better than others.

Last edited by jonpall (2011-04-28 10:59:00)

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#21 2011-04-28 10:40:43

jonpall
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Registered: 2009-06-12
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Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

The passagio is a cold mistress. There's only one way to embrace her; anything else will crash and burn. But.. that embrace results in the one voice range... and that...is highly addicting... Today I was able to flip up freely through the passagio.... sang well over a dozen G4's, and at least half as many Bb4's.. which have the same sound quality as the G4, and those sounded better than the clip I posted.. Fxxxccckk it's taken a long time.  I had to completely stop singing rock over six months ago in order to learn the freedom to work through the passagio and obtain this sound. Up until then I'd been doing a dual thing... rock and classical... it was slow going.. I realized that unless one learns total freedom they will always be reinforcing tension in the voice.

Ok, now I understand more where you're coming from and where you stand in your process of learning how to sing, or improve your singing. It's very common for people who are truthfully still in the early stages of learning how to sing to think that there is "only one way" to do something. With more experience you'll find that it's just not true. You might think you're very experienced because you've been doing this for many years, but your above paragraph proves otherwise. Don't be afraid and don't worry about that you won't one day learn how to sing the way you want to. You just need a bit more experience, even for an old guy, and a more open mind.

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#22 2011-04-28 10:48:52

jonpall
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Registered: 2009-06-12
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Re: Singing with a rasp

The bottom line is that not everyone has access to a good vocal coach, let alone someone who can teach you a great foundation for the passagio, let alone someone who can teach you how to sing with rasp. This is where books and videos like CVT and the Four pillars can help people. It would be better, sure, to be in direct contact with a great coach (which is why f.ex. CVT instructors and Robert offer Skype lessons), but for very many people, this is not an option (for many reasons).

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#23 2011-04-28 10:56:09

jonpall
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Re: Singing with a rasp

Mixed voice:

It's very simple. Mixed voice is head voice with cry.

Not to be confused with vocal fry, but a cry or a moaning sound like you have a tummy ache.

Put in just the right amount of cry (which some people call "hold" and others call "cord compression") and you'll get a thicker/chestier sound than a pure head voice (some would call head voice "neutral"). And if it's the right amount of cry, most people won't even detect it. If you put in a bit more cry, it might sound too whiny and even constrict your throat. Mixed voice is also very, very similar to what some people would call curbing.

I'm guessing that the mixed voice type of thing doesn't blend too well in with the Four pillars because the Four pillars are based a lot on the Eh vowel (as in "egg") and I've heard from many different sources that putting a cry on top of the Eh vowel is difficult in the passagio and actually close to impossible if you go higher than that. So it makes a lot of sense that cry/curbing/mixed voice is not a part of the Four pillars. But it's quite ok. It just depends on what type of sound appeals to you. Some guys like the SLS sound. Other like classical singing. Some like metal singers like Geoff Tate. Others prefer Brian Johnson. It's apples and oranges - all very tasty, yet different and can live in harmony in the same fruit bowl.

Last edited by jonpall (2011-04-28 11:21:29)

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#24 2011-04-28 17:03:31

VIDEOHERE
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Registered: 2008-12-22
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Re: Singing with a rasp

aldertate wrote:

jonpall wrote:

Studying Caruso might help with many things regarding singing, even the foundation for adding grit, but it won't help you learn how to do grit. You need something extra than just a vocal coach who can teach you Caruso's techniques.

By learning the foundation of singing you'll be able to figure it out on your own..
but more than that... you'll be able to utilize 100% of your voice, and will learn what real freedom feels like.. which is critical... If a singer can't navigate the passagio freely, with full resonance... they've never achieved full freedom... and their upper register (and passagio) will always be danger zones...

i think you just contradicted yourself aldertate....lol!!!!

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#25 2011-04-28 22:42:24

Ronron
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Registered: 2010-08-29
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Re: Singing with a rasp

The passagio is a cold mistress. There's only one way to embrace her; anything else will crash and burn.

Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 ways to cross the passagio. Not all of them are musically appealing to everyone, sure. And there are more ways than what the top of my head can think of right now too.

Mixed voice is head voice with cry.

You know what ? I've been wondering about this for a while now. I was about to ask something around those lines, but now I've got my answer :)


Why aren't days 32 hours long ? <_<

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