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#26 2011-02-27 19:21:47

jonpall
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

devaitis - DON'T try to be more chesty. That was mixed voice, for sure. Or curbing. Same thing, basically. I've listened to several clips of yours so I can compare this one to your previous ones. This was the best I've heard from you, definitely. Your vowels were much more resonant this time around - they were mostly the 3 curbing vowels - Uh, I and O. Very cool.

But you have to work on an occasional consonants, f.ex. when you sing "throw my HEAD..." - the "h" in "head" had a very thick foreign accent which sounds bad to most english speaking people and probably people in general. It sounds a bit like Borat :) Sorry, but hey, you want the honest truth, don't ya? :) Well, the good news it that I'm sure this is NO problem for you to fix, as you seem to have good control over your instrument (your voice) in general. You had a constant slight cry on your voice, which is key for this type of singing.

One big change in this clip and your previous ones is that you were more twangy and therefore slightly less operatic/"heady" (heady = a very, very light tenor, as opposed to a dramatic "hero tenor", the latter being more exciting, IMO). Bravo. Next time around you might even want to be 1% MORE twangy and see how that sounds, ok? It's very cool to listen to your gradual process. Cheers!

Last edited by jonpall (2011-02-27 19:25:58)

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#27 2011-02-27 19:23:28

devaitis
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

You sound very "squeezed" in some parts though

Is it sound bad? Should I hit it more freely?

If I connect string a little bit harder, more squeezed, there will be distortion like bruno does i think.

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#28 2011-02-27 19:28:37

jonpall
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

Also note that you will know when you're doing it correctly when you feel less effort in your throat. So try modifying the vowels slightly, or move your jaw up or down slightly, or your larynx, etc., until all of a sudden it's like you "click" into some magic position in your throat that makes singing much easier and more resonant. This is basically what Jamie Vendera is talking when he's telling people to focus their sound into their soft palate. What helps with this is to both sings songs slowly and at normal speed.

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#29 2011-02-27 19:32:53

devaitis
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

This was the best I've heard from you, definitely

Better than my faithfully? Please dont be kidding me?

I would say it was 3x worse then faithfully and 10x worse then this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnhj_JJ0m_E (sherie amour by wonder).

Your help is huge guys. Thanks a lot.

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#30 2011-02-27 19:35:55

jonpall
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

Where's your version of Faithfully again?

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#31 2011-02-27 19:40:06

devaitis
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

I put it in my "journey" topic. Ronws noticed as the only one :P

Version with less treble http://www.box.net/shared/q2tvkftjec

In my YT you can hear queen and e. john as well.

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#32 2011-02-27 19:56:54

jonpall
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

Don't worry, I found it. Yes, it's better than your version of Faithfully.

You see, I think you're doing the same thing I was doing maybe one or two years ago - I was obsessed with sounding thick and full in the high register so I either pulled chest by shouting as loud as I could, or I was very light and "heady" with a very low larynx (like you are a lot in your version of Faithfully), very much like how Seth Riggs teaches his mum, mum, mum exercise, with a dopy and very light and not twangy sound. With a low larynx. Granted, he says that later on you should make it less dopy but I've heard many singers get stuck in that dopy/head/covered sound and I mean that in a sub-optimal way. Not trying to offend you or anyone, though, so I sincerily hope you don't take it that way.

I sang an Aerosmith song with a very heady/dopy sound to James Lugo once (on this forum) and he told me that I'd put people to sleep with that sound and I should wake up and consider my voice to be a Porsche that I'd been driving in the parking lot for too long and it's time to go onto the highway and see what it could do. Guess he spotted my SLS background right away. Btw. I still think there's lots of truly awesome things in SLS. But I realized that my voice wasn't edgy enough, at least not for my (and Lugo's) taste, so I began investigating all of this like a possessed man. You should be glad, because you're not nearly as dopy/heady as I was. You're not even like that constantly, because on some phrases I do hear more edge in your voice. And you're way ahead of so many singers with your talent. You're almost there, man!

Continuing with my point ... I alway thought I needed to sound more "bassy" throughout my range, both on high and low notes. I also wanted to have an extremely low speaking voice because I thought it sounded cool. My speaking voice is not that low and not that high. Ok, so later I realized that most of my singing heroes WEREN'T actually as bassy-sounding as I thought they were. In fact, they had a bright ring to their voices if I started to listen very carefully (f.ex. Steven Tyler ... AND Bruno Mars ... and basically all good singers) and now I know that this is mostly the result of twanging. As far as putting in some low overtones along for the ride on your high notes - you do that by singing resonant vowels and "cry" and, in some cases, manipulating your larynx and soft palate, among other things.

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#33 2011-02-27 20:13:02

devaitis
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

I was obsessed with sounding thick and full in the high register

Exactly like me.

Thanks for sharing. The key word for me is TWANG and EDGE sound. Okey Ill focuse on it. Clip with Bruno is good path i see.

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#34 2011-02-27 23:24:26

ronws
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

This must be jonpall's day to put out excellent posts.

Something else I noticed. And it's just a pointer than may help with continuity of note, maybe not. On "Cherie Amour," your aspirant is noticable. You pronounce an H, which is an aspirant sound as you would in your own language, which, if I remember, is polish. The american H is not so pronounced. I notice this difference between English and Spanish, as I also speak some spanish, a lot of german, and handfuls of other languages including Arabi, Chinese, Japanese, oh, never mind, I won't trot out the list.

Anyway, in singing, one has to lose the aspirant, even the soft american H. Start the word that has an H on the vowel. Make the H silent, as if you were speaking cockney british. 'ave instead of have. This will flow better on your singing. Your journey song, dopey or not, flows better because the lyric contains no aspirants that start the words. The mind of the human listener will put an H there. But if you put an H there, you put in some uncoordination in your vocal folds and alignment.

The one language I don't speak, though I would like to learn, is icelandic and I confess that I don't know what native speakers call it. But I am willing to bet that it is spoken much like english or german, both being nordic languages, rather than slavic or balkan. How much of that is an effect, and how much is your work, jonpall, on singing in an american accent? I think I remember a clip of you speaking once and you sounded midwestern, maybe canadian, i.e., not much regional dialect in accent. I worked with a guy from the Virgin Islands, which is a US territory and he spoke with no accent. No midwest, no northeast or new englander, no southerner, no surfer speak from the west coast. But not british or UK, either.

And many kudos to you members for whom English is not the first language. I can only imagine the work you do to sing in a language I was born into. It would like me trying to sing in Hindi. Though I might could manage it, with my ear for languages, which are like music to me. That's why I pick up bits and pieces of them. They are like musical phrases.

Any, Spaciba, tovarisch. Danke, Freunden. Chukran. Do mari gato. Shyeh shyeh ni. Gracias. Grazi. Ishi.

Thank you, deva, for sharing with us your work, as well.


"Please, allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste." - Mick Jagger

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#35 2011-02-28 20:22:37

VIDEOHERE
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

jonpall wrote:

Don't worry, I found it. Yes, it's better than your version of Faithfully.

You see, I think you're doing the same thing I was doing maybe one or two years ago - I was obsessed with sounding thick and full in the high register so I either pulled chest by shouting as loud as I could, or I was very light and "heady" with a very low larynx (like you are a lot in your version of Faithfully), very much like how Seth Riggs teaches his mum, mum, mum exercise, with a dopy and very light and not twangy sound. With a low larynx. Granted, he says that later on you should make it less dopy but I've heard many singers get stuck in that dopy/head/covered sound and I mean that in a sub-optimal way. Not trying to offend you or anyone, though, so I sincerily hope you don't take it that way.

I sang an Aerosmith song with a very heady/dopy sound to James Lugo once (on this forum) and he told me that I'd put people to sleep with that sound and I should wake up and consider my voice to be a Porsche that I'd been driving in the parking lot for too long and it's time to go onto the highway and see what it could do. Guess he spotted my SLS background right away. Btw. I still think there's lots of truly awesome things in SLS. But I realized that my voice wasn't edgy enough, at least not for my (and Lugo's) taste, so I began investigating all of this like a possessed man. You should be glad, because you're not nearly as dopy/heady as I was. You're not even like that constantly, because on some phrases I do hear more edge in your voice. And you're way ahead of so many singers with your talent. You're almost there, man!

Continuing with my point ... I alway thought I needed to sound more "bassy" throughout my range, both on high and low notes. I also wanted to have an extremely low speaking voice because I thought it sounded cool. My speaking voice is not that low and not that high. Ok, so later I realized that most of my singing heroes WEREN'T actually as bassy-sounding as I thought they were. In fact, they had a bright ring to their voices if I started to listen very carefully (f.ex. Steven Tyler ... AND Bruno Mars ... and basically all good singers) and now I know that this is mostly the result of twanging. As far as putting in some low overtones along for the ride on your high notes - you do that by singing resonant vowels and "cry" and, in some cases, manipulating your larynx and soft palate, among other things.

jonpall, you want to laugh...just lately i have been trying things the way you used to not like (i think you call it neutral), or a light steve perryish sound......i've always been powerful i guess because i equate a lighter tone with weakness or a less masculine sound.  i'm really focused now on doing a little backtracking to accept and discover that other lighter tone.
i psychologically block it, but when i use it no one but me thinks it's weak.

i find when you do that mesa di voce exercise a.k.a. vendera's transcending tone, you get the whole feel of what it's like to go from a (hate this word) falsetto, to a full rich full voice tone and back again.

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#36 2011-03-01 01:02:41

ronws
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

VIDEOHERE wrote:

jonpall, you want to laugh...just lately i have been trying things the way you used to not like (i think you call it neutral), or a light steve perryish sound......i've always been powerful i guess because i equate a lighter tone with weakness or a less masculine sound.  i'm really focused now on doing a little backtracking to accept and discover that other lighter tone.
i psychologically block it, but when i use it no one but me thinks it's weak.

This is so important that I wish it was a sticky post. I know it will get lost. It seems that psychology is more powerful than reality for many people. Please, please, please, everyone read these words from Bob. What held him back from some good sounds was not a physical limitation. But a psychological one. That he felt it wasn't masculine or right. Two assumptions there. First, that the sound was unmasculine. Second, that "unmasculine" was bad. It's a damned note. Hit it. You simply don't don't have to sound like you think James Hetfield sounds while singing a C5, for example. You simply don't.

But I do have an advantage. I've had toxic and dysfunctional family problems and I saved myself by ignoring them. So, a lot of those messages you listen to in your head about how you should sound like, I don't hear. I'm going to hit that note, whether someone thinks I sound like a woman or not. Because I really don't care. I'm about the note.


"Please, allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste." - Mick Jagger

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#37 2011-03-01 04:49:05

rich2k4
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

i'll say this.  Bruno Mars has a really high speaking voice,  so those notes he sings come easier to him,  they are natural to him.  I think you'd be better off lowering the key of the song, otherwise it's going to sound forced.

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#38 2011-03-01 08:07:49

devaitis
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

I think you'd be better off lowering the key of the song, otherwise it's going to sound forced.

Are You talking to me? I dont want to sing bruno. I practice tech aspects only.

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#39 2011-03-01 09:48:37

jonpall
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

rich2k4 wrote:

i'll say this.  Bruno Mars has a really high speaking voice,  so those notes he sings come easier to him,  they are natural to him.  I think you'd be better off lowering the key of the song, otherwise it's going to sound forced.

I disagree. Although I suppose it's easier for a lighter voice to sing high pitched songs, it's mostly a matter of technique, whether it's learned or stumbled upon as a kid. Steve Perry talks with a voice that's just slightly higher than average. Steven Tyler's speaking pitch is probably about average (if you can listen past his permanent rasp). David Coverdale's and Brian Johnson's voices are very deep. Yet, all these singers sing a lot of high notes. But IF you haven't mastered the art of singing high, then, YES, definitely lower the key if you're gonna perform it live, IMO. But if you want to learn this craft, you have to train high notes a lot, and in the beginning they won't necessarily sound great. But that's exactly what practise is for - to get better.

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#40 2011-03-01 10:10:10

jonpall
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

ronws wrote:

VIDEOHERE wrote:

jonpall, you want to laugh...just lately i have been trying things the way you used to not like (i think you call it neutral), or a light steve perryish sound......i've always been powerful i guess because i equate a lighter tone with weakness or a less masculine sound.  i'm really focused now on doing a little backtracking to accept and discover that other lighter tone.
i psychologically block it, but when i use it no one but me thinks it's weak.

This is so important that I wish it was a sticky post. I know it will get lost. It seems that psychology is more powerful than reality for many people. Please, please, please, everyone read these words from Bob. What held him back from some good sounds was not a physical limitation. But a psychological one. That he felt it wasn't masculine or right. Two assumptions there. First, that the sound was unmasculine. Second, that "unmasculine" was bad. It's a damned note. Hit it. You simply don't don't have to sound like you think James Hetfield sounds while singing a C5, for example. You simply don't.

But I do have an advantage. I've had toxic and dysfunctional family problems and I saved myself by ignoring them. So, a lot of those messages you listen to in your head about how you should sound like, I don't hear. I'm going to hit that note, whether someone thinks I sound like a woman or not. Because I really don't care. I'm about the note.

Ronws, notice that no one is ever commenting on this statement of yours that it's ok to sound however you want and have a thin or soft sound, even though you seem to be making it over and over. I think you may be downplaying the importance of learning how to sing more resonant and how much it matters to singers who want to get better at their craft.

Although I can see your point, surely you can also see the other people's point that they want their sound to be more "beefy"? And there IS such a thing as singing with a weak tone, just like it's possible to develop a strong tone. Sometimes if you sing like a woman, you just sound like a woman, as simple as that. Don't fool yourself, people. You have to listen both to other peoples opinion of your voice as well as your own. And often you can get the best comments from vocal coaches or people who understand voices. Steven Fraser comes to mind. And Ronws, I sincerely don't mean that as an offence. You have a strong voice that's well connected from bottom to top and I think you have good potential to take your voice anywhere you want. Your heart also seems to be in the right place as you've clearly shown your love for music an infinite number of times.

Bob, I think you just need to find a balance. Not TOO weak and not too strong either. Just something that you end up liking. What I've heard from you sounds perfect to me, and Ronws and probably everyone in the whole world if you ask me :)

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#41 2011-03-01 14:39:32

jonpall
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

Bob, what does worry me sometimes is that you sound like you think that it's ok to strain in your throat (when in the process of building a more powerful voice) because in time you will build stronger muscles there like in bodybuilding. But I think most experts would disagree and tell you that singing high, powerful notes is about resonance and breath support. You can simply experiment by moving your inner throat muscles around a bit, f.ex. by changing the vowels a bit, lowering or raising your larynx, dropping your jaw, increasing twang, etc. until all of a sudden, singing the same note you were singing all of a sudden becomes much easier, sounds much louder and powerful and more resonant and the pain and effort in your throat goes away. This is what you should be searching for, if you're not already doing it, and not settling for any type of pain or fatique in your throat. If it takes too much effort, especially in your throat, but even in your abs (like f.ex. if you're just shaking like a mad man while supporting), you're not singing 100% correctly. But really, I don't know how often, if ever, your throat hurts from singing, but I do know that your sound is amazing. Make sure it doesn't wear you down too much to create that sound. Cheers.

Last edited by jonpall (2011-03-01 14:41:12)

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#42 2011-03-01 16:04:02

rich2k4
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

jonpall wrote:

rich2k4 wrote:

i'll say this.  Bruno Mars has a really high speaking voice,  so those notes he sings come easier to him,  they are natural to him.  I think you'd be better off lowering the key of the song, otherwise it's going to sound forced.

I disagree. Although I suppose it's easier for a lighter voice to sing high pitched songs, it's mostly a matter of technique, whether it's learned or stumbled upon as a kid. Steve Perry talks with a voice that's just slightly higher than average. Steven Tyler's speaking pitch is probably about average (if you can listen past his permanent rasp). David Coverdale's and Brian Johnson's voices are very deep. Yet, all these singers sing a lot of high notes. But IF you haven't mastered the art of singing high, then, YES, definitely lower the key if you're gonna perform it live, IMO. But if you want to learn this craft, you have to train high notes a lot, and in the beginning they won't necessarily sound great. But that's exactly what practise is for - to get better.

i know that,  but it seems to me that the song sounds the way it does, because of his natural voice tone.  hard to explain

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#43 2011-03-01 16:37:33

devaitis
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

but it seems to me that the song sounds the way it does

This song is very specific IMO. The melody is rough and doesn't flow. Some three girls in AI did a great job covering grenade, but.... Bruno give an extra something.

In the other hand those men did excellent job hitting that song:

i think better or equal for Bruno:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL_sLyWNj7I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk6Oub8nUGc  that gay was in another edition of AI

So, i think that in this song tone and color of your high voice means a lot.

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#44 2011-03-01 22:48:17

VIDEOHERE
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

jonpall wrote:

Bob, what does worry me sometimes is that you sound like you think that it's ok to strain in your throat (when in the process of building a more powerful voice) because in time you will build stronger muscles there like in bodybuilding. But I think most experts would disagree and tell you that singing high, powerful notes is about resonance and breath support. You can simply experiment by moving your inner throat muscles around a bit, f.ex. by changing the vowels a bit, lowering or raising your larynx, dropping your jaw, increasing twang, etc. until all of a sudden, singing the same note you were singing all of a sudden becomes much easier, sounds much louder and powerful and more resonant and the pain and effort in your throat goes away. This is what you should be searching for, if you're not already doing it, and not settling for any type of pain or fatique in your throat. If it takes too much effort, especially in your throat, but even in your abs (like f.ex. if you're just shaking like a mad man while supporting), you're not singing 100% correctly. But really, I don't know how often, if ever, your throat hurts from singing, but I do know that your sound is amazing. Make sure it doesn't wear you down too much to create that sound. Cheers.

jonpall,

thank you my friend for taking the time to write and check in on me as my aspirations and goals (making a living at it) are similar to your's.

i totally agree with you (i'm not okay with straining in the throat, i just like a strained sound sometimes lol!!!) and rest assured i have made great progress singing more effectively with more emphasis on isolating the folds to make pitch changes and avoiding bringing in the throat, not squeezing and all.

i'm thrilled that you like my singing voice. at 57, that means a lot to me.  i have learned so much from your posts and i love your voice as well.  i'm like many of us, a perfectionist in an area where we probably shouldn't be, but all i can say is i just keep trying on my own i guess to figure this stuff all out.

i definitely have made so much progress since i started vocal study now one year ago.  power always came easy to me now (at the suggestion of steve fraser), i'm exploring my softer side, if i have one lol!!! want to add more dynamics and better connections at lower volume.

Last edited by VIDEOHERE (2011-03-01 22:51:24)

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#45 2011-03-03 03:16:40

ronws
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

jonpall wrote:

ronws wrote:

VIDEOHERE wrote:

jonpall, you want to laugh...just lately i have been trying things the way you used to not like (i think you call it neutral), or a light steve perryish sound......i've always been powerful i guess because i equate a lighter tone with weakness or a less masculine sound.  i'm really focused now on doing a little backtracking to accept and discover that other lighter tone.
i psychologically block it, but when i use it no one but me thinks it's weak.

This is so important that I wish it was a sticky post. I know it will get lost. It seems that psychology is more powerful than reality for many people. Please, please, please, everyone read these words from Bob. What held him back from some good sounds was not a physical limitation. But a psychological one. That he felt it wasn't masculine or right. Two assumptions there. First, that the sound was unmasculine. Second, that "unmasculine" was bad. It's a damned note. Hit it. You simply don't don't have to sound like you think James Hetfield sounds while singing a C5, for example. You simply don't.

But I do have an advantage. I've had toxic and dysfunctional family problems and I saved myself by ignoring them. So, a lot of those messages you listen to in your head about how you should sound like, I don't hear. I'm going to hit that note, whether someone thinks I sound like a woman or not. Because I really don't care. I'm about the note.

Ronws, notice that no one is ever commenting on this statement of yours that it's ok to sound however you want and have a thin or soft sound, even though you seem to be making it over and over. I think you may be downplaying the importance of learning how to sing more resonant and how much it matters to singers who want to get better at their craft.

Although I can see your point, surely you can also see the other people's point that they want their sound to be more "beefy"? And there IS such a thing as singing with a weak tone, just like it's possible to develop a strong tone. Sometimes if you sing like a woman, you just sound like a woman, as simple as that. Don't fool yourself, people. You have to listen both to other peoples opinion of your voice as well as your own. And often you can get the best comments from vocal coaches or people who understand voices. Steven Fraser comes to mind. And Ronws, I sincerely don't mean that as an offence. You have a strong voice that's well connected from bottom to top and I think you have good potential to take your voice anywhere you want. Your heart also seems to be in the right place as you've clearly shown your love for music an infinite number of times.

Bob, I think you just need to find a balance. Not TOO weak and not too strong either. Just something that you end up liking. What I've heard from you sounds perfect to me, and Ronws and probably everyone in the whole world if you ask me :)

Again, I think my words were misunderstood, which often happens. I wasn't talking about my voice. I was talking about others who thought they sounded weak but were fine. And yes, if someone want's a beefier sound, they can work to achieve that. And, I will also repeat that many a coach and many a professional singer recognizes that each voice has limitations. And some of the biggest struggle is to accept the voice that one has. And, according to Roger Love, many major singing stars don't like their own voices. 

But don't worry, I will stick to my point like a dog on a bone.  ;)


"Please, allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste." - Mick Jagger

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#46 2011-03-03 03:29:33

rich2k4
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

here is me doing grenade with a head voice type tone.  i find that if i practice a high song like this,  after a while, like a month, i find it's easier to start to add weight to it.

http://www.box.net/shared/r1i6zqck71

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#47 2011-03-03 08:09:43

devaitis
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

Man, you are close to perfect sound. You should sing it once again with more breath support. There is nice tone in your highs.

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#48 2011-09-19 22:13:39

amanda32
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

Hi ! I'm new here.. My name is Amanda, I'm 32 and I love to sing. I took voice and piano/keyboard lessons off and on on until 3 years ago. Mostly working on my range and higher register. Which I think, has expanded ! I want to be able to sing with emotion like Otis Redding, Jackie Wilson, and Chuck Negron, formerly of Three Dog Night ! More recently I became interested in Bruno Mars and have been trying to sing like him. I'm an alto but, I love to sing high falsetto notes but, am not sure if I'm using chest, mixed, or head voice to do this. As I'm not familiar with these techniques ! I do know, that I don't like the way my voice sounds in recordings. I'll post a clip of me singing anyway even though I'm shy about singing for others ! I would love some feedback on how I sound !

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#49 2011-09-19 22:31:00

jonpall
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

Welcome to the jungle, Amanda. Btw. Bruno Mars sings a lot in what many people call "mixed voice".

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#50 2011-09-19 22:50:46

amanda32
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-19
Posts: 16
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Re: Chest Voice, Mixed Voice, Head Voice

Thanks ! Ok .

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