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#1 2014-11-29 02:15:06

Bzean123
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Registered: 2014-05-09
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Is this singing possible?

I was catching up on my Sadus recently and heard this touching ballad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FoeTg2Hb5o

Vocals start at about 0:20. When the 'singer' goes up high starting at 0:23, it sounds pretty impossible to me. Is it possible to sing with distortion that high? Or is it without doubt some kind of processing going on?

By the way, I have no desire to vocalize like this, just thought it was interesting.

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2014-11-29 02:15:06

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#2 2014-11-29 03:03:31

Bzean123
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Thanks Phil!

You are quite right, I only have so much time to practice and my voice can only take so much work in a day. So while it might be cool trick to pull that sound out at a party or something, its not a skill I have either the time or the inclination to work on. I really just wanted to find out if it was possible.

But if Jens or anyone else on the forum has this kind of skill it would be nice to hear more about how you do it.

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#3 2014-11-29 08:25:47

Owen Korzec
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Re: Is this singing possible?

where did Phil's post go?

Anyways, yeah I can hear clearly that's totally natural. Raspy whistle voice scream, that's all. Not sure if it's healthy though. Has a bit of a "I'm so hoarse my voice is flipping to an airy whistle" sound to it, but I'm no expert on anything up on that range, so don't take my word for that.

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#4 2014-11-29 09:39:32

Khassera
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From: Oulu, Finland
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Haha I used to be able to do that. Probably still could if I got back into it. I dunno if it's whistle voice, but Melissa Cross teaches it as fry screaming. Nothing to do with the vocal fry I don't think. I used to be able to do crazy high stuff with a screamo project band but then I changed into cleaner singing. I still do some of the false cord / fry stuff just for s&g's or as an effect.

Last edited by Khassera (2014-11-29 09:40:45)


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#5 2014-11-29 21:56:35

Bzean123
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Thanks Owen and Khassera! Got any clips of yourself doing that Khassera?

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#6 2014-11-30 20:24:28

Khassera
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From: Oulu, Finland
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Bzean123 wrote:

Thanks Owen and Khassera! Got any clips of yourself doing that Khassera?

Nah, not proper ones, but tell you what: Once I get over my laryngitis I'll try to record something.


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#7 2014-11-30 20:56:53

Jens
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Re: Is this singing possible?

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#8 2014-11-30 21:48:35

Owen Korzec
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Re: Is this singing possible?

That's badass Jens good job

Your way sounds healthier too

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#9 2014-11-30 22:05:53

Bzean123
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Awesome Jens, thanks for posting that!

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#10 2014-11-30 22:07:33

Bzean123
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Khassera wrote:

Bzean123 wrote:

Thanks Owen and Khassera! Got any clips of yourself doing that Khassera?

Nah, not proper ones, but tell you what: Once I get over my laryngitis I'll try to record something.

Thanks Khassera  -  look forward to hearing your version!

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#11 2014-11-30 22:49:20

Khassera
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From: Oulu, Finland
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Bzean123 wrote:

Khassera wrote:

Bzean123 wrote:

Thanks Owen and Khassera! Got any clips of yourself doing that Khassera?

Nah, not proper ones, but tell you what: Once I get over my laryngitis I'll try to record something.

Thanks Khassera  -  look forward to hearing your version!

You know, I just might not do one. :D Haha, that's just amazing. Well done, Jens!


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#12 2014-11-30 23:18:09

Jens
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Thanks for the nice comments guys. This is just a technique ,a choice i can make for  the highrange. It however kindo limits my High pharyngeal heavymetalscreams and my usual powermetalapproach wich is Why i rarely do this except for Moments like this.

Cheers

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#13 2014-12-01 19:11:53

ronws
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Cool Jens. It also kinda sounds a little like the warm-up you were doing in your infamous "Highway Star" vid.


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#14 2014-12-01 19:13:31

ronws
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Nice warm-up


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#15 2014-12-01 19:57:12

Clint Torres
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From: Where the sun don't shine
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Re: Is this singing possible?

I hate to be the outcast and party pooper here but once again I am puzzled.  I find that a whole lot of effort is placed on sounding like someone else rather than becoming your own artist. Wouldn't it be great if other singers wanted to sound like you?    What makes anyone think he, or this sound, is using a specific technique?   Sure, if you wanted to imitate him you would have to figure out a method or technique to accomplish this mimicry. But what is he doing? Possibly (and probably) nothing.  If he were at a ballgame and wanted to scream at the umpire "you suck!"  it would come out in his voice. Maybe very distorted and raspy or maybe a scream like a girl.  That is his voice, not a technique. It just happens. The guy sitting next to him may scream also but he would sound different. Would he say "wow....I wonder how that guy screamed like that? I want to sound like that."   Who cares?   It isn't a technique. It's his voice.

Maybe what you're hearing in the OP's original clip is that guy trying to sound like someone singing in another song and this is his attempt. Maybe it isn't even close but it's HIS attempt at it.  So maybe you are trying to copy a faulty copy.  I think many of these types of off the wall distorted sounds are more a product of personal voice sounds and mimicry than anything else.  It is the equivalent of trying to sound exactly like Frank Sinatra.  For what?  You may as well become an impressionist comedian mimicking voices.  Which brings us back to the how to's.  It's all mimicry.  It's like trying to sound like a cartoon or a TV character or an animal. You figure it out on your own. When you were a child did anyone teach you how to make a monster sound or the growl of a bear or the roar of a lion or the Baa baa of a sheep (that contains vibrato and no one taught us that, we just did it).   No. You just did it. All the kids did.  IMO, these sounds are the same. It isn't "singing" actually. It is a form of vocalizing with a sound (distortion/mimicry) to a melody. 

There shouldn't be a question here. There should only be "hey I like that style.   Let me try to do something along those lines."  Then like a child roaring like a lion you just  do it. Your way.

Ok, my opinion.   Shoot me!!:D

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#16 2014-12-01 20:10:58

Jens
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Clint Torres wrote:

I hate to be the outcast and party pooper here but once again I am puzzled.  I find that a whole lot of effort is placed on sounding like someone else rather than becoming your own artist. Wouldn't it be great if other singers wanted to sound like you?    What makes anyone think he, or this sound, is using a specific technique?   Sure, if you wanted to imitate him you would have to figure out a method or technique to accomplish this mimicry. But what is he doing? Possibly (and probably) nothing.  If he were at a ballgame and wanted to scream at the umpire "you suck!"  it would come out in his voice. Maybe very distorted and raspy or maybe a scream like a girl.  That is his voice, not a technique. It just happens. The guy sitting next to him may scream also but he would sound different. Would he say "wow....I wonder how that guy screamed like that? I want to sound like that."   Who cares?   It isn't a technique. It's his voice.

Maybe what you're hearing in the OP's original clip is that guy trying to sound like someone singing in another song and this is his attempt. Maybe it isn't even close but it's HIS attempt at it.  So maybe you are trying to copy a faulty copy.  I think many of these types of off the wall distorted sounds are more a product of personal voice sounds and mimicry than anything else.  It is the equivalent of trying to sound exactly like Frank Sinatra.  For what?  You may as well become an impressionist comedian mimicking voices.  Which brings us back to the how to's.  It's all mimicry.  It's like trying to sound like a cartoon or a TV character or an animal. You figure it out on your own. When you were a child did anyone teach you how to make a monster sound or the growl of a bear or the roar of a lion or the Baa baa of a sheep (that contains vibrato and no one taught us that, we just did it).   No. You just did it. All the kids did.  IMO, these sounds are the same. It isn't "singing" actually. It is a form of vocalizing with a sound (distortion/mimicry) to a melody. 

There shouldn't be a question here. There should only be "hey I like that style.   Let me try to do something along those lines."  Then like a child roaring like a lion you just  do it. Your way.

Ok, my opinion.   Shoot me!!:D

This used to be my view exactly, it changed when i started looking into my favourite singers idols :p and realised they sounds the same lol.

The problem is also, you dont have an "own" voice 99% of the sounds you used today is mimicry! the way you Speak language ect is just you copying your parents and society.
So if you dont wanna mimicry your are left with liongrowls and baby gurgles, the moment you using language your just as much rippoff as anyone else :p
the more used you are to making a certain sound the more natural it will sound, after a while it becomes second nature

Last edited by Jens (2014-12-01 20:12:00)

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#17 2014-12-01 20:40:56

Clint Torres
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From: Where the sun don't shine
Registered: 2014-10-03
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Jens wrote:

This used to be my view exactly, it changed when i started looking into my favourite singers idols :p and realised they sounds the same lol.

The problem is also, you dont have an "own" voice 99% of the sounds you used today is mimicry! the way you Speak language ect is just you copying your parents and society.
So if you dont wanna mimicry your are left with liongrowls and baby gurgles, the moment you using language your just as much rippoff as anyone else :p
the more used you are to making a certain sound the more natural it will sound, after a while it becomes second nature

Interesting point but isn't that kind of it?  It's all mimicry and not some magic technique?  Just mimic the sound as best you can. You may not sound exactly like him but you will be within that style. Why would you want to sound exactly like him anyway. That's been done. Do you! 

Yes, every singer has their idols and they try to get that sound.  But it's more of an impersonation type of thing or an influence rather than a carbon copy or seeking a specific technique that will produce exact results. No?

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#18 2014-12-01 20:51:32

Jens
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Clint Torres wrote:

Jens wrote:

This used to be my view exactly, it changed when i started looking into my favourite singers idols :p and realised they sounds the same lol.

The problem is also, you dont have an "own" voice 99% of the sounds you used today is mimicry! the way you Speak language ect is just you copying your parents and society.
So if you dont wanna mimicry your are left with liongrowls and baby gurgles, the moment you using language your just as much rippoff as anyone else :p
the more used you are to making a certain sound the more natural it will sound, after a while it becomes second nature

Interesting point but isn't that kind of it?  It's all mimicry and not some magic technique?  Just mimic the sound as best you can. You may not sound exactly like him but you will be within that style. Why would you want to sound exactly like him anyway. That's been done. Do you! 

Yes, every singer has their idols and they try to get that sound.  But it's more of an impersonation type of thing or an influence rather than a carbon copy or seeking a specific technique that will produce exact results. No?

No ofcourse but then it doesnt matter really right? ;) to me technique opened up tons of Doors so i could get alot more sounds. Sounds i never dreamed of being able to do, and a range bigger then i ever though possible.
I wish all singers similar results in their journey.

Regardless if you wanna call it technique or mimicry it's the same. Your teaching your voice certain sounds that you couldnt do before by either doing exercise(wich is simplified sounds) wich make mimicing them easyer and more forgiving for the voice then for example going straight for chris Cornelis Jesus christ pose.
Thats Why you should get a good coach, he has been in your shoes and knows the steps to become better.

Edit: you can ofc do this on your own by mimicing yes but it takes so much longer. I was usually the example used on this forum of a Guy who mainly trained myself and got results.
These last two years i started Talking some lessons from Robert, also from Felipe and daniel. I got more results in these two years than i 6 of practicing on my own.
I realise now this sounds like some ad hah well well

Cheers :)

Last edited by Jens (2014-12-01 20:58:27)

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#19 2014-12-01 21:01:03

Clint Torres
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From: Where the sun don't shine
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Re: Is this singing possible?

On a slightly different note pertaining to the same subject. I have found that a good deal of singers try to copy a sound before having all the facts about how the sound was produced. In other words. Sometimes a raspy, distorted high note may appear to be sung loud on a recording. One trying to copy it continuously sings high and loud straining and getting nowhere. "how the F is he doing that?"    Meanwhile the how is that he isn't singing loud at all. He is singing very low, making it very easy to do those sounds, but the soundman/mixer is increasing the volume.    Time wasted.

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#20 2014-12-01 21:32:48

Jens
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Yes ofc, but there is the other way around aswell hah you think they are singing very Mellow and soft. You get to hear them acousticly and they rip the paint of the walls
The beauty of the voice i guess :)

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#21 2014-12-01 21:37:20

Clint Torres
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From: Where the sun don't shine
Registered: 2014-10-03
Posts: 83
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Which makes it hard to copy someone without actually being there and knowing what they are doing. Or aren't.  I guess that makes your case for having a good amount of techniques to help out. :)

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#22 2014-12-01 21:53:31

Jens
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Registered: 2009-01-07
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Yeah exactly, but the funny part however you can actualy copy someone without even doing the samething lol. Let me elaborate ;)

Two singers can make a sound.

Recorded it sounds the same

With a mic it sounds the same

If you put them acousticly in a room one of the singers is twice as loud and thus percived completly diffrent.
for instance my favourite singer sounds so crazy powerfull, i was in the same studio as his former bandmates and they said he actualy Wasnt that loud.

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#23 2014-12-01 23:33:04

Khassera
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From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Wow, Jens, your singing voice is much lower, or rather, much "beefier" than I had expected since you did that cover of Highlander. Even though I don't like to think in terms of voice classifications, but you sound like a baritone. Would you agree? You have some mad range, though.

EDIT: And is this fav singer you're speaking of Daniel Heiman?

Last edited by Khassera (2014-12-01 23:33:47)


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#24 2014-12-01 23:52:17

Jens
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Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 1461
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Yeah i would probably agree, or well it depends on who you ask. My voice is pretty much deadcenter medium i would guess. An average guys voice, ive just gotten the coolstuff down due to technique.
i dont bother to much with voicetypes i go for the sounds i want, with help from the great guys here. Robert,Daniel,Felipe and Martin and hard Work i usually get the sounds i want.

Cheers :)

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#25 2014-12-02 04:26:40

Bzean123
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-05-09
Posts: 110
Reputation :   

Re: Is this singing possible?

Clint Torres wrote:

I hate to be the outcast and party pooper here but once again I am puzzled.  I find that a whole lot of effort is placed on sounding like someone else rather than becoming your own artist. Wouldn't it be great if other singers wanted to sound like you?    What makes anyone think he, or this sound, is using a specific technique?   Sure, if you wanted to imitate him you would have to figure out a method or technique to accomplish this mimicry. But what is he doing? Possibly (and probably) nothing.  If he were at a ballgame and wanted to scream at the umpire "you suck!"  it would come out in his voice. Maybe very distorted and raspy or maybe a scream like a girl.  That is his voice, not a technique. It just happens. The guy sitting next to him may scream also but he would sound different. Would he say "wow....I wonder how that guy screamed like that? I want to sound like that."   Who cares?   It isn't a technique. It's his voice.

Maybe what you're hearing in the OP's original clip is that guy trying to sound like someone singing in another song and this is his attempt. Maybe it isn't even close but it's HIS attempt at it.  So maybe you are trying to copy a faulty copy.  I think many of these types of off the wall distorted sounds are more a product of personal voice sounds and mimicry than anything else.  It is the equivalent of trying to sound exactly like Frank Sinatra.  For what?  You may as well become an impressionist comedian mimicking voices.  Which brings us back to the how to's.  It's all mimicry.  It's like trying to sound like a cartoon or a TV character or an animal. You figure it out on your own. When you were a child did anyone teach you how to make a monster sound or the growl of a bear or the roar of a lion or the Baa baa of a sheep (that contains vibrato and no one taught us that, we just did it).   No. You just did it. All the kids did.  IMO, these sounds are the same. It isn't "singing" actually. It is a form of vocalizing with a sound (distortion/mimicry) to a melody. 

There shouldn't be a question here. There should only be "hey I like that style.   Let me try to do something along those lines."  Then like a child roaring like a lion you just  do it. Your way.

Ok, my opinion.   Shoot me!!:D

Clint

Wow. Where to fire the first shot?

1. You chose the wrong tree to bark up by venting in this thread.  I actually said in plain english (more than once in the thread, actually) that I was only interested in how that sound was made and had no interest in making these sounds. Wonder how you missed that part? Anyways, I'll repeat it again: this type of singing is not on my to-do list.

2. But lets assume for a moment that I really started this thread to learn how to 'mimic' these sounds. The fact that I was doubtful whether the sounds were even real might have been a clue that I had absolutely no idea how to go about such mimicry. You don't know my singing range, but I think its fairly safe to assume that over 95% of non professional male singers cannot get up into that range. So its not likely I would have the capability of doing anything similar. My point is: the average singer might have a fighting chance of 'doing something along the lines' of say Frank Sinatra, since you mentioned him. The average singer would have virtually no chance of approaching anything the Sadus guy is doing. Not without a crapload of training. IMO. Which leads to:

3. Why do vocal training at all? After all, if you are doing vocal exercises, you're just mimicking the teacher, right? I hope you don't sing or even practice any cover songs - cause then you're just mimicking someone else's song. Ever sung a song using the notes of the major scale? That's a no-no. You didn't come up with that scale - you just stole it from the Major who invented it. Why use the words of the english language to communicate? Not creative enough to come up with your own words?

---------

Listen dude, I get your point. You think people should work on their creativity. Cool. I don't disagree with you. However, talking down to people and telling them what they should and shouldn't be doing is really not appreciated. If I want to sing exactly like Sinatra, Lady Gaga, a mime or the Cookie Monster, that's my business, not yours, capisce? Peace. :)

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#26 2014-12-02 12:10:45

Clint Torres
TMV Forum Member
From: Where the sun don't shine
Registered: 2014-10-03
Posts: 83
Reputation :   

Re: Is this singing possible?

Bzean123 wrote:

Wow. Where to fire the first shot?

1. You chose the wrong tree to bark up by venting in this thread.  I actually said in plain english (more than once in the thread, actually) that I was only interested in how that sound was made and had no interest in making these sounds. Wonder how you missed that part? Anyways, I'll repeat it again: this type of singing is not on my to-do list.

2. But lets assume for a moment that I really started this thread to learn how to 'mimic' these sounds. The fact that I was doubtful whether the sounds were even real might have been a clue that I had absolutely no idea how to go about such mimicry. You don't know my singing range, but I think its fairly safe to assume that over 95% of non professional male singers cannot get up into that range. So its not likely I would have the capability of doing anything similar. My point is: the average singer might have a fighting chance of 'doing something along the lines' of say Frank Sinatra, since you mentioned him. The average singer would have virtually no chance of approaching anything the Sadus guy is doing. Not without a crapload of training. IMO. Which leads to:

3. Why do vocal training at all? After all, if you are doing vocal exercises, you're just mimicking the teacher, right? I hope you don't sing or even practice any cover songs - cause then you're just mimicking someone else's song. Ever sung a song using the notes of the major scale? That's a no-no. You didn't come up with that scale - you just stole it from the Major who invented it. Why use the words of the english language to communicate? Not creative enough to come up with your own words?

---------

Listen dude, I get your point. You think people should work on their creativity. Cool. I don't disagree with you. However, talking down to people and telling them what they should and shouldn't be doing is really not appreciated. If I want to sing exactly like Sinatra, Lady Gaga, a mime or the Cookie Monster, that's my business, not yours, capisce? Peace. :)

Well, now it seems you have misinterpreted my post :)  If it came across as talking down to anyone then either my phrasing is bad or you are adding voice inflection to mere text and reading it that way.   I have to assume the latter since That wasn't how I intended it.   Either way, I apologize. 

But my point wasn't to tell anyone what or how to do something and by the points you wrote above I can see that you missed the point I was making. Actually it had nothing to do with you or your original post directly anyway. I know I wrote a line or two in my post mentioning the OP and the video but it was more to make a point.  My bad.    It was just a general statement which at this point (since you didn't understand it the first time) would take too much to explain and it isn't really important.

Listen, I've been doing this a long time and have been able (in the past) do do a lot with my voice by understanding vocals.  But if I had to take a written test I would fail miserably. I don't understand half the stuff I read here by the terms and specific techniques.  But what happens is once I finally get the explanation of what was talked about I end up realizing I have been doing that already for years. I just never knew what it was called or how to write it down. In person I could probably show you and explain how to do it, but if it were a question on a test I wouldn't know what the hell it was.  So sometimes I just see things as the long way around and wonder why people spend so much time on it.   

YES!  Sound like cookie monster. THAT type of explanation works better for me on how to make a sound than all the bridging, formant, A4's, headvoice, creaking, twang, falsettos and all that mumbo jumbo. 

Sorry for the misunderstanding. It was in no way an attack on you or your post. :)

Last edited by Clint Torres (2014-12-02 12:13:38)

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#27 2014-12-02 14:09:01

Khassera
TMV Forum Member
From: Oulu, Finland
Registered: 2013-08-02
Posts: 347
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Clint Torres wrote:

YES!  Sound like cookie monster. THAT type of explanation works better for me on how to make a sound than all the bridging, formant, A4's, headvoice, creaking, twang, falsettos and all that mumbo jumbo.

Yep. It's much faster to say "try this, *cookie monster noise*" than "Try to dampen creak twang respirate asphyxiate bungolawate roll the bog with the tongue diagonally pulsating against the crycothyroid activity against the throbbing purple wind magic."


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#28 2014-12-02 14:30:36

Clint Torres
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From: Where the sun don't shine
Registered: 2014-10-03
Posts: 83
Reputation :   

Re: Is this singing possible?

Khassera wrote:

Clint Torres wrote:

YES!  Sound like cookie monster. THAT type of explanation works better for me on how to make a sound than all the bridging, formant, A4's, headvoice, creaking, twang, falsettos and all that mumbo jumbo.

Yep. It's much faster to say "try this, *cookie monster noise*" than "Try to dampen creak twang respirate asphyxiate bungolawate roll the bog with the tongue diagonally pulsating against the crycothyroid activity against the throbbing purple wind magic."

For some that works. For me it gets a bit too deep. As I explained elsewhere on this forum I was taught in an odd way. But it worked and for me. I learn better that way and feel it's more natural.  I grew up with a good friend who like me, loved music. Eventually we formed a band. He played a few instruments as his family was very musical. But he also sang. His dad was classically trained and at this point i'm not sure what he actually did but I remember he was always singing what to me as a kid sounded like opera. Anyway that's how my buddy learned. He knew a lot. How it was taught to him by his dad I have no idea but how he taught it to me was simple and without specific technique names or anything. Just the "do this."   

I would sing something then he would say. " ok...thats not bad but you know that part that goes like this?  Try singing it like this."  Then he would demonstrate, Then he would describe weird sounds like cartoons or TV characters or scary sounds or happy sounds and on and on. Then I would go  "ahhhh, I get it! It's like that time we snuck up on Bobby with those halloween masks on and scared the crap out of him."   he would say "yea....like that....make that noise.   Now see what happens to your tongue?"  Do that again and now sing that line again doing the same thing."   Then we would tweak from there.

Along those lines is how I learned. I feel that works much easier for me and in person I have had an easier time explaining it to others.

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#29 2014-12-02 20:20:13

Khassera
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Re: Is this singing possible?

That reminds me: One of the best tips for this specific sound in question, in the topic, came from some youtube-dude called "chains" something. He did some crazy covers on Lamb of God songs, and he pretty much said "try to sound like meathead from aqua teen hunger force. That's how to do the high screams." I thought that was genius!


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#30 2014-12-02 20:33:41

Clint Torres
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Khassera wrote:

That reminds me: One of the best tips for this specific sound in question, in the topic, came from some youtube-dude called "chains" something. He did some crazy covers on Lamb of God songs, and he pretty much said "try to sound like meathead from aqua teen hunger force. That's how to do the high screams." I thought that was genius!

Like I said, I really have little technical jargon to relay instruction and this isn't my genre of music. But I "THINK" that many beginners or the untrained might feel compelled to go for rasp when attempting sounds such as this. In turn that would perhaps cause them to assume it comes from the throat and thus start trying to growl a bit and end up being very hoarse and throaty. In the case of this example where some have said it was a form of whistle voice it wouldn't work since being throaty would more or less invoke chest tones and whistle voice would be (imo) head voice.  Any success i have had with these distorted tones has been a mix between being nasal or pharyngeal and raising the soft palate. Like I said I don't know the terms but is that covering?  Well it's all that plus (for me) getting the sound in the nose. Or between the nose and the soft palate.

See? I can't explain it unless I can show you in person. Useless terms :D

Last edited by Clint Torres (2014-12-02 20:34:45)

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#31 2014-12-02 20:38:04

ronws
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Khassera wrote:

That reminds me: One of the best tips for this specific sound in question, in the topic, came from some youtube-dude called "chains" something. He did some crazy covers on Lamb of God songs, and he pretty much said "try to sound like meathead from aqua teen hunger force. That's how to do the high screams." I thought that was genius!

My boss and I, at work, singing bits along with his ipod desk station have surmised, I think, correctly, the best way to mimick Ian Astbury from The Cult is to channel Marvin the Martian.

I double-dare you to youtube search a Cult song and now be unable to NOT think of Marvin the Martian. And approaching it from that image is a lot easier and more successful, even for a technical guy like me, than a lot of the terms that get used, especially when our semantics get slippery.

Last edited by ronws (2014-12-02 20:38:56)


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#32 2014-12-02 21:04:18

Clint Torres
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Re: Is this singing possible?

ronws wrote:

...I think, correctly, the best way to mimick Ian Astbury from The Cult is to channel Marvin the Martian.
I double-dare you to youtube search a Cult song and now be unable to NOT think of Marvin the Martian. And approaching it from that image is a lot easier and more successful, even for a technical guy like me, than a lot of the terms that get used, especially when our semantics get slippery.

See?  That's all I'm saying. Don't you think this accomplishes the task easier than trying to explain to someone to raise the soft palate or lift the back of the tongue or creak like an old witch make sounds  with an NG or all of the above while standing on one foot and relaxing the shoulders but clenching your butt cheeks and feeling like you are taking a crap but still breathing freely and....?

Last edited by Clint Torres (2014-12-02 21:05:17)

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#33 2014-12-03 01:41:53

ronws
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Re: Is this singing possible?

To me, even creaking like a witch is more helpful than worrying about the exact percentage of adduction, etc. It's not that I lack understanding of technical things. I can tell you exactly why you have to use the square root of three,  or, if you prefer, the cosine of the angle in spherical trigonometry, when doing power calculations for 3-phase (commercial) electrical power.

I could tell you at the electron level how your amplifier works.

And I could, and have done several times, explained why proper resonance is more responsible for one's vocal volume than the other factors because it involves waveform and aspects of heterodyning, which also explains how some partials or harmonics, which is more accurate, can either be enhanced or diminished (dampened or attenuated.) But if we are talking about a sound effect, it is sometimes better to have an image, even a funny one, to accomplish what we want.

That sound I am talking about, I certainly don't have the singer tech talk to describe how to do it, if I was even accurate in trying. And find that I am not as worried that I cannot "technically" describe it as other than the Marvin the Martian sound. So, I guess I can blame it on Mel Blanc.

On one song I covered, someone liked a bombastic and "deep" sounding note I did, that was not a low note. I cannot explain in technical terms what I did but my thought process was "cavernous."


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#34 2014-12-03 05:04:44

MDEW
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Khassera wrote:

That reminds me: One of the best tips for this specific sound in question, in the topic, came from some youtube-dude called "chains" something. He did some crazy covers on Lamb of God songs, and he pretty much said "try to sound like meathead from aqua teen hunger force. That's how to do the high screams." I thought that was genius!

This would work better for me also. There are many notes and sounds that let me get higher in my range or sound more full and solid. For something like the Meathead voice and high notes I always thought that was the WRONG way to do it because it does not sound natural. Same thing with the Kermit voice around G4 with that voice or configuration I can get a deeper fuller sound F#4 G4 G#4.... but when I asked if that was what should be happening (on this forum) I was told NO that is not the way. That is just a choice some have made to make a particular sound.
     I hear that Kermit sound(knoedle) in many Southern Rock singers. I asked if it was something they do to help sing. "No, that is just the way that particular person sounds when they sing." I think it is a way they make the G4 area sound fuller and deaper. It does work for me But I have not done that on anything I have posted here. I kind of thought it was wrong.

Last edited by MDEW (2014-12-03 05:05:57)


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#35 2014-12-03 12:34:48

Clint Torres
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Re: Is this singing possible?

MDEW wrote:

This would work better for me also. There are many notes and sounds that let me get higher in my range or sound more full and solid. For something like the Meathead voice and high notes I always thought that was the WRONG way to do it because it does not sound natural. Same thing with the Kermit voice around G4 with that voice or configuration I can get a deeper fuller sound F#4 G4 G#4.... but when I asked if that was what should be happening (on this forum) I was told NO that is not the way. That is just a choice some have made to make a particular sound.
     I hear that Kermit sound(knoedle) in many Southern Rock singers. I asked if it was something they do to help sing. "No, that is just the way that particular person sounds when they sing." I think it is a way they make the G4 area sound fuller and deaper. It does work for me But I have not done that on anything I have posted here. I kind of thought it was wrong.

I have only ever used what may be called the Kermit the frog sound as a description for those who needed another descriptive example of a yawn or raising the soft palate.  Or for bringing the sound up high in the nose or eyes sort of like NG. The kermit thing seemed an easy lead in to covering which wasn't used for a deeper sound but more of a bridge to a higher one. And the ability to cut the resonance off from going out the mouth but rather, the kermit sound (yawn, dopey, bullwinkle whatever) raises the soft palate and the rear of the tongue and redirects the resonance up into the pharyngeal area.   But as I've said. I have my own way so this may not mesh with others interpretation or method.

I should note that I don't believe thses sounds (kermit or yawns or dopey) should not be heard while singing. They are only methods or ideas to help someone understand and gain aids in navigating the sound to their head tones or shift resonance up. No matter if the sound is deep or high.

Last edited by Clint Torres (2014-12-03 12:45:00)

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#36 2014-12-03 13:19:47

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Ah! But you see Clint:

Knowing what is it that you are doing, you can use tons of references for the same goal, you can make use of nasalance, Kermit sound, sleepy, you can use coordinations that you know that address a particular point, like drinking water, smelling, etc. If you know exactly what is it that you want to do, you can be creative and find the best way to help, also you can better understand what is the problem being addressed too.

Its totally different from approaching it with the idea that what you want is to sound like Kermit the frog. Thats not really the goal.

And on a forum, where all we can do is write, in my opinion there is as much chance of someone producing the result I have in mind by saying do "a yawny voice" as from saying "mimic Caruso". Its random. Even when we think on a simple vowel, like "AH", people do all kinds of coordinations, sometimes with a different vowel being produced.


Its necessary to understand that it is a problem solving situation:

Probable cause: back of the tongue is too low.
Possible solution: elevate the back of the tongue.
Test: kermit the frog, nasalance, direct the sound to the eyes, to the top of the head, NG, sneeze, drink, smell, pull the tongue out, yawn, ect.

After being able to use one of the references on that particular cause, did it solve the problem on the singing?
Yes -> Practice with the reference that works
No -> Keep looking, the problem is most likely something else


If you take this process and resumes to: Sounding like kermit is the deal, or NG is the deal, in my opinion you have more chances of doing something right by just singing and trying to make it comfortable.

Last edited by FelipeCarvalho (2014-12-03 13:24:14)

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#37 2014-12-03 13:55:20

Khassera
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Jens wrote:

Cheers :)

Hey Jens, one quick q:

Do you have exercises/drills you do all throughout the day?


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#38 2014-12-03 14:02:27

Clint Torres
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Re: Is this singing possible?

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

Ah! But you see Clint:

Knowing what is it that you are doing, you can use tons of references for the same goal, you can make use of nasalance, Kermit sound, sleepy, you can use coordinations that you know that address a particular point, like drinking water, smelling, etc. If you know exactly what is it that you want to do, you can be creative and find the best way to help, also you can better understand what is the problem being addressed too.

Its totally different from approaching it with the idea that what you want is to sound like Kermit the frog. Thats not really the goal.

And on a forum, where all we can do is write, in my opinion there is as much chance of someone producing the result I have in mind by saying do "a yawny voice" as from saying "mimic Caruso". Its random. Even when we think on a simple vowel, like "AH", people do all kinds of coordinations, sometimes with a different vowel being produced.


Its necessary to understand that it is a problem solving situation:

Probable cause: back of the tongue is too low.
Possible solution: elevate the back of the tongue.
Test: kermit the frog, nasalance, direct the sound to the eyes, to the top of the head, NG, sneeze, drink, smell, pull the tongue out, yawn, ect.

After being able to use one of the references on that particular cause, did it solve the problem on the singing?
Yes -> Practice with the reference that works
No -> Keep looking, the problem is most likely something else


If you take this process and resumes to: Sounding like kermit is the deal, or NG is the deal, in my opinion you have more chances of doing something right by just singing and trying to make it comfortable.

Thanks Felipe I appreciate the explanation :)   But could it be that you are confusing my post with MDEW's?   He was the one who mentiond Kermit.  In my post I thought I, in some odd way (not as good as you did) explained to him the same principle as you just did. My post right above this. I explained Kermit sounds to lift the rear of the tongue, soft palate etc to bring the resonance up. I also mentioned NG. :D

Maybe you confused mine and MDEW's posts.  Good stuff though, thanks anyway

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#39 2014-12-03 16:03:47

MDEW
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Re: Is this singing possible?

I get your point Felipe, even if you are aware of what things are different with a certain sound "lifted soft palate, raised or lowered tongue, higher or lower larynx" the reference only works if the other person knows how to make that sound already. I could not get someone else to make that kermit sound by saying lift your soft palate raise your tongue a little......To be honest I don't really know exactly what is happening......
   I had a friend who would make that Meathead/elmo voice and asked how he made it. He did not know. I was TRYING to sing Elvis's "Jailhouse Rock" which is centered between F#4 and A4.... while trying to get Elvis' sound and trying different things all the sound suddenly slipped past and behind my soft palate(that is what it felt like to me) and I was suddenly in that Meathead voice. From there it was easy to mimic the Elmo voice. But once I found that coordination I did not need to find anything when wanting to use the Meathead or Elmo voice. It was just there when I wanted it.
   The point is still the reference only works when someone understands that particular reference.
  It is also "Why the need for so many terms" it is true that one well known "Sound" can represent the configuration of the "Entire vocal tract" including soft palate,placement,laryngeal height and fold envolvement. But the sound reference only works if the student can already make that sound.
   If one would include the SOUND reference and give the general description of things like raised soft palate,lowered larynx.....then the reference and the terms could be better understood.

Last edited by MDEW (2014-12-03 16:08:25)


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

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#40 2014-12-03 16:43:00

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Sorry Clint, I think I was not very clear.

What I mean, is that we are talking about solutions for a specific problem, and not a strict rule that applies for everyone. Its a common issue yes, but the degrees vary, the sensations vary, and some people simply dont have the issue.

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#41 2014-12-03 17:43:10

Jens
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Khassera wrote:

Jens wrote:

Cheers :)

Hey Jens, one quick q:

Do you have exercises/drills you do all throughout the day?

Yes i have tons of diffrent exercises i do, also alot of singing. All cool sounds i can do is due to training technique

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#42 2014-12-03 22:42:11

Khassera
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Any ones you'd like to share?

For instance, i do lugo's witch cackles with my mouth closed all throughout the day. It feels like they really loosen up the high register. Basically it's just a really resonant/creaky Mm-sound from up to bottom. Bwoops are also fun.


"'Means are many' said the hag as she wiped the table with a cat."

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#43 2014-12-04 04:41:59

Jens
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Re: Is this singing possible?

Well there are so much you can do, but i dont know your voice at all. How it is and your preferences so just giving you something random is just guesswork wich i dont like doing :)
I really like the four pillars program and approach, It's gonna give you a strong foundation once you got that down start develop your own style and make the sounds YOU want :)
Once you have a strong foundation getting what you truly Desire becomes so much easyer.

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