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#1 2014-11-26 22:05:25

m.i.r.
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interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

Most informed singers have heard of the appogio. I practice it myself and it is one of the most important things to me in maintaining even and powerfull compression. However.......I know the diaphram can move it self down under its own muscle, however it is passive moving back up. When you build compression with your back and stomach muscles...how is that actually putting compression on your diaphram?? There is no air in that area, just organs and what not. What is the medium that actually pushes the diaphram up from the muscles moving in? I am hoping this question makes sense as i was trying to figure out the best way to ask it. Like a tube of tooth paste, if you were to push it out from the bottom. Your hand presses the tube it self, then the tube presses against the paste, then once the paste builds up enough pressure it has to find an escape which is the opening. However, what actually presses against your diaphram, i know the muscles are like the hand, but what is the paste lol????

Last edited by m.i.r. (2014-11-26 22:07:06)

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2014-11-26 22:05:25

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#2 2014-11-26 22:17:58

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

There is pressure on the abdominal cavity too, its just that no air moves in or out.

So pressing with your abdominal muscles increases this pressure which speeds up the diaphragm return to its rest position (or negative movement).

Supporting usually is done by elevating the abdominal pressure gradually while opposing this. This way the diaphragm does not relax totally during the exhale phase.

In a way, its a servo system that makes the flow more stable.

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#3 2014-11-26 22:59:13

m.i.r.
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

That is a very good answer and makes complete sense. My only remaining question and basically the route question that started me wondering. What actually physically pushes your diaphram? Like if your belly was full of water, and you flexed your stomach muscles, i know that pulling in pressure would create compression in the water. And that pressure of the water would push against the diaphram causing it to move upwards. So what is that medium in your body?? Bodily fluids? Your organs? Or???

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#4 2014-11-26 23:44:29

ChumelsVanCogle
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

pushing out your stomach uses muscles that aren't part of normal diaphragm movement.

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#5 2014-11-27 00:14:28

m.i.r.
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

I thought initiation of breath from the core was the most natural way to breathe? Babies breathe like that from day one?? I also dont mean holding your belly out the whole time as in that style of breathing. The pressure has to come from some where so your lungs take over and collapse to expel the air in that situation.

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#6 2014-11-27 00:21:36

ChumelsVanCogle
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

besides it functioning as a muscle, I guess the back wall of the diaphragm is a contributor to pressure, as the diaphragm also moves horizontally.

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#7 2014-11-27 00:29:27

m.i.r.
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

Or possible after re reading felipes reply. Maybe since your body is basically air and water tight, besides what the skin chooses to release, or if there is a puncture. You actually have a negative pressure always inside. So whenever you activate pushing your diaphragm up with the support muscles, there is not enough time for the pressure created by the mass of organs,body fluid, ect to displace anywhere. So it goes towards the only thing that will move with that pressure and it happens to be the flexiable diaphragm. And that is my best guess lol

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#8 2014-11-27 04:44:37

ChumelsVanCogle
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

uh, there's no altering of gas in the diaphragm, that happens in the lungs! plus the diaphragm is a true muscle, it doesn't need supporting muscles to move.

Last edited by ChumelsVanCogle (2014-11-27 04:45:48)

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#9 2014-11-27 05:01:14

m.i.r.
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

Well i finally found an answer to the question. Apparently the body is pressurized. The intra abdominal pressure which is what controls the diaphragm from stomach side when going up, tendons from the rib cage pull it down when needed. So when you flex or push in your lower support muscles after taking a proper breath, it increases that pressure which moves the diaphragm up with more power (it will contract on its on from normal tension).

The interesting thing to me is an average weight person has an intra abdominal pressure of 6.5 mm Hg, however bigger and obese people can have 16.5mm Hg and higher. So maybe the myth that alot of opera singers are large may actually hold water, may provide them an advantage. Compress the air much easier with less muscle involvement because their pressure is naturally high inside. Also makes sense why overly large people seem like they struggle to breath sometimes, because of the high intra abdominal pressure the diaphragm has to fight to lower.

Also on a side note, apparently their are exercises that people can do to help the diaphragm. Apparently some people are born with tight or stiff ones. Which makes it more difficult for them to take deep breaths, as well as an over active bladder from the higher abdominal pressures from the stiff diaphragm. I wonder if these exercises would help singers.

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#10 2014-11-27 09:15:13

D.Starr
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

Just sing

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#11 2014-11-27 18:39:27

m.i.r.
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

I do "just sing". Nothing wrong with wondering the science behind it, and what is exactly happen. Just by wondering that little question, stumbled accross the fact that well trained bigger people can access more vocal compression easier than same trained smaller person. I also believe know the science and what is exactly happening is very important if you are a teacher. So you can train your ears to know what you are hearing and to actually "visualize" what they are doing. May help you create interesting exercises to stop bad habbits and to access the folds and support accurately. I am not teaching currently and wont until i feel i am completely competent. Also not until i have a l long track record of the vocal technique holding up through the test of time. So maybe one day down the line.

Although i agree with "just sing", but it isnt that fun to just sing when you only have a crappy one octave range (instead of the 4 constant work, training, and research has got me) and can only sing 10 percent of the songs you want to, and even on those you blow your voice out after 3 songs. Or cant write anything you want because you cant cover the melody you want. I wasnt a born gifted singer, I had to work my ass off for what seemed to be an eternity to get where i am now, and i still have a ways to go. Only thing that gave me any edge was near perfect relative pitch from my instrumental back ground. So yeah, just sing for the emotion, sure totally agree. But it is a hell of alot more fun "least to me" to do it when you have the technical back ground to do it right.

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#12 2014-11-27 18:53:31

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

Ahhh but slow it a bit with the conclusions m.i.r. The dynamics of breathing will change depending on the individual, but it does not mean that a bigger dude will have more compression than a little guy.

A listen to Thomas Quasthoff for example should make this clear :).

Remember that we can contract the abs and produce way more pressure than what would be necessary, you don't need to be overweight to compress air (slim, tiny people sneeze too :P).

And also, that compression does not happen without adduction. What creates the pressure is the whole, not just intra-abdominal pressure.

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#13 2014-11-27 19:12:47

m.i.r.
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

Ahhh but slow it a bit with the conclusions m.i.r. The dynamics of breathing will change depending on the individual, but it does not mean that a bigger dude will have more compression than a little guy.

A listen to Thomas Quasthoff for example should make this clear :).

Remember that we can contract the abs and produce way more pressure than what would be necessary, you don't need to be overweight to compress air (slim, tiny people sneeze too :P).

And also, that compression does not happen without adduction. What creates the pressure is the whole, not just intra-abdominal pressure.

Completely agreed....my conclusion was not that they could create more. Never said that just stated it would require less muscular work, or be easier with less work. As in someone bigger would already have the same static pressure a smaller person would have with already engaging some level of support.

And yes i know the glottis and other variables have to excist to create compression. That is why I when i compared the smaller and bigger person, i stated both properly trained. However, i will also say i am sure a smaller person in fantastic shape will be able to create more overall pressure than a bigger person completely out of shape. Just the bigger person will just have a higher static pressure and beginning point. Also, yes will agree any person can create more than enough pressure to blow the folds apart, well atleast the true folds, dont know about the false folds. I suppose my only point is that a bigger person could technically sing higher phrases with the natural recoil of thd diaphragm without engaging muscular support than a smaller person.

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#14 2014-11-27 22:02:18

ChumelsVanCogle
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

you really don't listen. adduction is about ct and ta balance. a bass with natural balance can sing better than one without, it doesn't matter about arbitrary diaphragm force.

your very excentric but so is everyone who starts out.

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#15 2014-11-27 22:13:33

Danielformica
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From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

D.Starr wrote:

Just sing

:)


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#16 2014-11-27 22:16:44

Martin H
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

ChumelsVanCogle wrote:

you really don't listen. adduction is about ct and ta balance.

This is not entirely correct. Adduction is done by the primary adductors. Which are the lateral cricoarytenoids (LCA) and the inter arytenoids (IA).

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#17 2014-11-27 22:47:17

m.i.r.
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Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

ChumelsVanCogle wrote:

you really don't listen. adduction is about ct and ta balance. a bass with natural balance can sing better than one without, it doesn't matter about arbitrary diaphragm force.

your very excentric but so is everyone who starts out.

Well i am reading not listening, and apparently reading comprehension is not your strong suit. My original question was on the diaphragm that is it. As i repeatedly stated previously, I am completely fully aware of the other aspects of compression. I was only speaking of the "engine" part only. You can close your folds (not with your ta or ct they are for fold length and thickness, as martin said its the lca and ia) all day, but without the engine nothing will happen. I mean guess technically you dont need to move your diaphragm to create breath, you can use your ribs with shallow breathes and sloppy exhales. I mean cows with diaphragm damage can survive as long as they dont have labored activity. So once again, aware of all the other aspects of vocal compression, but was only speaking of the one aspect, pointing that out once more.

As for being excentric, yes always have been about music since i was a pup. That will never change, as for being new to music not quite. Been a working musician for 12 years either part time or full time, between session, sound track, or live fill in, with a couple personal groups during that time in between. Yes my newest aspect of music is vocals, as only 4 years ago did i really start pursuing seriously. That was mainly from what happened to my last group with a singer that flipped out and put us in a very bad situation on the road. But before then i had done back up singing for some time.

So before you smart off to someone, get your facts straight then hit reply. I have been nothing but respectful since becoming a member here, that is a simple thing to return. Eat some more turkey and relax, unless you are a vegi then well eat more vegis nuts and fruit.

Last edited by m.i.r. (2014-11-27 22:49:05)

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#18 2014-11-27 23:05:36

ChumelsVanCogle
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Posts: 126
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

heh, well I'm not the one writing a huge paragraph about one of the members.

and I can use my mix past my 2nd octave fully, so how would you know what it takes?

get real, I wasn't even being critical and there's a lot more critical here and other places.

Last edited by ChumelsVanCogle (2014-11-27 23:06:18)

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#19 2014-11-27 23:25:13

m.i.r.
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Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

Ok??? Congrads about your mix?? I can mix too?? Is this where we high five or something? Or is where we compare ranges and try to see who has the bigger balls? Then have a sing off and the winner gets the others girl?

Egotistical much? Think only two sentences give or take was about you in that last post?

But i will say, majority of this post was about you, I hope you feel special now.

Last edited by m.i.r. (2014-11-27 23:25:50)

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#20 2014-11-28 02:34:44

ChumelsVanCogle
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Registered: 2014-07-10
Posts: 126
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

yeah I'm glad for pointing out a troll. I've met a teacher of 40 years who didn't understand laryngeal dampening and said you can get adduction without it.

so I get off topic of your appoggio and you throw a tantrum. appoggio / diaphragm control, while important, still has nothing to do with your pharyngeal flexibility and your laryngeal dampening and how they are balanced.

in your previous recording, I saw nothing lacking with pharyngeal and laryngeal function, but you complain you can't  reliably make it past the 2nd octave. that can make sense from an operatic singer, and to put as bluntly as I care too, it means you need to focus on head voice more, think like a countertenor.

and everyone here understands how much solfege goes into singing. I went from 1 octave, g2-g3, no pharyngeal and laryngeal functions, to having a mix in my upper range over 6 years. some guys more talented than me have been doing this for over 10 years and such. we aren't trolls and we don't encourage such behaviour.

and as you've probably seen, many topics tend to get off focus to large degrees in the first place.

Last edited by ChumelsVanCogle (2014-11-28 02:37:12)

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#21 2014-11-28 02:58:32

m.i.r.
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Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

I got my panties in a bunch because kept saying larynx larynx larnyx. I kept saying i know i agree i know i agree....but i am just talking about this...yet kept going around and around like talking to a brick. And I never said I had a problem with connection, i can easliy connect all the way to the end of my range(b5flat), my concern was tone i was working with trying to switch genres. Now that problem has all but vanished with a new approach, keeping all the classical closure and compression, and just modifying the vowels some plus letting the larynx go up a bit with more twang for the pure head voice.

Now suddenly I am a troll just because I am always excited about music(even though the music I write unless paid by someone to write something they want, is surprisingly dark)? If that makes me a troll then so be it, you wont get an apology from me.

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#22 2014-11-28 10:00:39

FelipeCarvalho
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Posts: 2889
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Re: interesting question i havent found the answer to yet

Chumels from the samples you sent so far you can't really do anything useful with your voice. So WAY less.

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