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#51 2014-11-25 21:59:14

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Interesting song breakdown

@Felipe

Of course results is an important indicator as well. Though in the end, I believe that without results the customer/student will not be happy.

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2014-11-25 21:59:14

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#52 2014-11-25 22:25:48

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: Interesting song breakdown

Martin H wrote:

@Felipe

Of course results is an important indicator as well. Though in the end, I believe that without results the customer/student will not be happy.

Some coaches might make the student feel more confident in their current ability without actually helping them improve at the skill of singing. The confidence is arguably a result, but in the end, they didn't physically get better at singing, unless the mentality alone helped them physically, which as you know is a small fraction. Can't just tell a student they're doing great when they're not...that's not vocal coaching that's just being a cheerleader as Felipe said.

A lot of coaches do this at least a little bit and it has always mystified me. Personally I just want to cut through the "you're doing great" (while I know I'm currently sounding awful) BS - another common one "lets just lower the melody into your good range" as if it makes me feel better about myself? I don't get the point of that practice, I'm stuck with a university coach that does it a bit, and I know it's just to help me get an A because universities don't care about range, but seriously $%($* that!

Instead I like coaches who go straight to the reality of what I need to practice to get better at singing in the skills i want, involving true range extension, dynamic versatility, etc.

Last edited by Owen Korzec (2014-11-25 22:29:17)

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#53 2014-11-25 23:52:00

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7197
Reputation :   66 

Re: Interesting song breakdown

owen,

a small fraction?

so much of this is governed by the mind. it's a very, very big part of it. if you can find one, get a hold of the book "voice of the mind."

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#54 2014-11-26 17:31:17

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Interesting song breakdown

@Owen

You might be right about the "cheer leading", however, I still believe, that eventually the student will realize that they are not progressing and start to search for another way.

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#55 2014-11-26 18:16:07

Jens
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 1461
Reputation :   36 

Re: Interesting song breakdown

VIDEOHERE wrote:

owen,

a small fraction?

so much of this is governed by the mind. it's a very, very big part of it. if you can find one, get a hold of the book "voice of the mind."

the voice of the mind... yuck, i spent 200 dollars getting that book to sweden. And... drumroll... it bloody sucks.
Very little is grounded in science and most is just mindless thinking, we have alot better coaches here on the forum.

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#56 2014-11-26 18:35:51

VIDEOHERE
Administrator
Registered: 2008-12-22
Posts: 7197
Reputation :   66 

Re: Interesting song breakdown

jens, i guess it's like a good teacher, some you gel with and some you don't.

the best part of that book is really understanding (at least for me) what really is happening when you sing a high note, and what needs to happen.

i got so much more out of it after a read it a second time.

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#57 2014-11-27 10:58:59

FelipeCarvalho
TMV Forum Member
From: Brasil
Registered: 2011-07-28
Posts: 2889
Reputation :   61 
Website

Re: Interesting song breakdown

That depends Martin, it would make sense, except that its not what I see happening.

Owen, yes psychological barriers may exist, but this thing of confidence and "trust your voice" is something that I just don't understand. If you can't execute properly then no you should not "trust" it, that's insanity, trust after you can do, not before. In fact knowing your limits and not trusting what you can't execute usually gives better results.

If you CAN do it easily and you are still not confident and panic, then I agree, it's a psychological issue. And it won't be solved by a moron treating you like a retard and telling you how awesome you sound during 5 tone scales...

5 tone scales sux, you can't possibly sound "awesome" doing it. :P

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#58 2014-11-27 13:42:52

ronws
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2010-05-23
Posts: 11731
Reputation :   139 

Re: Interesting song breakdown

And maybe you guys are right. Maybe what we need is stern and harsh judgement, all the time, which is, believe it or not, how I was raised. You know, "spare the rod, spoil the child"? So, they didn't spare the rod. Or harsh judgement. Although, to be accurate, I never received harsh judgement specifically, just my worth as a human being, in general. So, it didn't matter what I did well or not well. I was and still am a piece of crap that can't really justify my existence. Yeah, that will make for better singing ...

Is the standard for voice production the same between opera and pop music? There are a number of iconic rock singers that could not sing opera and just for once, I would like people to honestly admit that opera goes for a certain sound and not all people are gone to have the base tone that will lead to a long career. I know I am asking a lot. That is, even if you get a coach? Which coach? And can you trust him or her? And what if you did and sang for some other person and this other person considers himself an expert on music and pitch perception and decides you are off-pitch? Or you were just singing and someone walked up and said you are off-pitch. And are they right?

So, do you go back to your coach or teacher and say "you betrayed my trust!" (sword rattle, gauntlet toss)


And it's not a question of psychological barriers may exist, it is that they do exist. And to not realize that is going to lead to frustration for the teacher and the student, in both directions.

Although something was said that confuses me, which could mean that I am a moron. Why would doing 5 tone scales make me sound not awesome? Shouldn't the object of any lesson or practice lead to a better or at least more solid tone? What is it about 5 note scale that makes one sound not awesome? And how is the effect of not sounding awesome with those lead to actual better singing or better technique?

As I have said, I am not an expert in singing. I know some of you think I am an idiot. But it would be interesting to see why engaging in a sound that is not beatiful or all that managable is helping anything.

Or a corrollary question, will every student have a problem with or sound like crap on a 5 note scale and how can we predict that?


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#59 2014-11-27 18:44:07

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Interesting song breakdown

@Ron

I definitely agree about the psychological issues. It's a very interesting subject. Most singers have experienced the "fear of a note". What's interesting about this fear is that it tricks what is called the valsalva maneuver which is a response that closes of the airway to stabilize the thorax. This makes it even more difficult to sing the note and then creates more fear and in turn increases the valsalva response - and now you have entered a vicious cycle.

Actually, it has also been theorized that it's partly the valsalva response that is involved in the development of stutter in small children (eagerness, nervousness or even fear of speaking) - hence stutter becomes a learned behavior tricked by the valsalva response. And this theory is further supported by the fact that the most efficient treatment for stuttering in small children is based on operant conditioning (Lidcombe Program).

So in my opinion, since being "off pitch" is something that apparently creates most fear, it's better to address it indirectly because most often it can trick this physical response and therefore it's best to address it technically and avoid creating fear. This is especially important when working with trained singers because they are affected most by being "off pitch".

Last edited by Martin H (2014-11-27 19:05:03)

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#60 2014-11-28 00:11:18

MDEW
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2012-06-24
Posts: 2866
Reputation :   32 

Re: Interesting song breakdown

My own opinion is that confidence is the main ingredient. Yeah your tone can still suck even when you think you rock but when you think you suck there is no chance to have the correct emission, or fold closure or, support. You are beaten before you start. You cannot have a solid free note with a timid attempt.
   As we have seen recently the tone and sometimes pitch is more to do with throat shape than fold closure and support.
   Fold closure and support are part of the attitude of attack. A confident stance and steady emission.


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

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#61 2014-11-28 12:34:28

FelipeCarvalho
TMV Forum Member
From: Brasil
Registered: 2011-07-28
Posts: 2889
Reputation :   61 
Website

Re: Interesting song breakdown

Well Martin, but isn't this a basic part of breathing and support training?

And if you are approaching it "indirectly", I understand that being out of pitch was a consequence of something else. Isn't it the case that the more correct view is to say that the problem is the "something else", and not pitch per se.

There are problems related to perception and memory of melody, even on trained subjects, and I don't see how to approach it indirectly. Usually in this case people will not fear it, but rather have trouble identifying it.

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#62 2014-11-29 08:20:43

Owen Korzec
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 3109
Reputation :   78 
Website

Re: Interesting song breakdown

I think any professional singer should learn what singing sharp sounds like, as well as singing flat, as well as singing the wrong note, and how to fix all of these things by ear. When speaking in terms of sharp and flat and intervals, the specificity of the critique usually delivers it packaged with a specific solution and I think that is the most beautiful thing, so personally I have no fear about talking about fixing pitches. The worst is just when someone says "off" because then I have to rack my brains trying to reinterpret what they meant.

Approaching pitch indirectly may be great for technical practice, but in a rehearsal or performance, especially regarding one-off mistakes, I truly believe correcting these things is an ear training skill that should be done quickly with a thought process separated from manipulating technique, and instead driven by the ear with the help of the technical practice on the side giving the voice the flexibility to respond to the ear.

But my point is, I don't believe pitch precision cannot be achieved as quickly without confronting the issue directly, with the universal terminology of music education as sharp, flat, whole or half step above or below, etc. Provided the singer knows what all of that is.

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