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#1 2014-11-17 14:11:06

D.Starr
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Interesting song breakdown

How to Sing Chandelier by Sia



Her channel is full of great breakdowns too

Last edited by D.Starr (2014-11-17 19:55:25)

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2014-11-17 14:11:06

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#2 2014-11-17 23:43:55

VIDEOHERE
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

to me, this is exactly the kind of video and teacher that will end up doing more harm that good. not that she's not knowledgeable but to the beginner watching this, she's basically teaching you to drive a race car, without even teaching you how to shift gears. to me these should labeled advanced singing technique.

this whole marketing gimmickry of "do this or be this in no time" is all b.s.

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#3 2014-11-18 23:50:28

Singingnewbie
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Great video, i liked that she didnt play it safe and do an easy - comfortable range - song. Videohere if i like weight lifting and watch a "Squat tutorial" and have back/knee problems next day the logic says

The weight was too heavy (for me)
My technique was bad (i didnt follow the correct technique showing in the video)
The instructor taught a bad technique

She did an excellent job in my opinion so the fault, if any, goes to anyone who watches the video and dont know what "some crazy high belting" and other terminology is, also later on she does suggest to watch her other video on belting.

From my point of view, nothing to blame her for and props for doing a though song. Also one of the fastest, clear and easy to learn rasp tutorial! Subscribed, thanks a lot D.Starr!

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#4 2014-11-18 23:58:34

VIDEOHERE
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

those techniques (to me) are useless without a clear understanding of how the voice actually works and learning some basic fundamentals.

she was using vowel mods. on lower notes that didn't require modification but rather articulation.

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#5 2014-11-19 01:10:35

Singingnewbie
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Useless is better than harmful but i still disagree. So learning how to drift (or whatever other technique) with a race car is useless unless you know how the engine actually works or what happens between your right foot pressing the gas pedal and wheels turning? You dont study chemistry behind the pills you take but just because the doctor said so, you do take them.

After all she has a ton of basic stuff, if someone who doesnt know these basic stuff watches a difficult song tutorial - which she mentions - has nothing to do with her creating it in first place.


I generally like a more loose/darker pronunciation something like irish so i liked/didnt mind the mods, technically wise i dont know.

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#6 2014-11-19 21:21:28

VIDEOHERE
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

it's okay to disagree.

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#7 2014-11-19 22:07:48

Singingnewbie
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Well, i analyzed my thoughts on our disagreement and if youd like you can do for yours, thats how we can end up with a better revised opinion.

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#8 2014-11-20 00:06:07

geno
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Bob - you're right - this video contains some very advanced techniques and she doesn't go through any basics.  This is kind of typical of a singer coming from Musical Theater.  My daughter took a musical theater workshop last summer and the voice teacher had them singing some really difficult stuff - in a very high range.  And NO basics at all - just sink or swim - belting.  You do the best you can with whatever technique you have.

I am impressed with this woman in the video and her quirky style.  I thought the video was very entertaining and fast paced.  She is an excellent singer.  When she talks about vowel mods it is not at all the kind of vowel mods we talk about on this forum.  She is basically teaching the kind of dialect / vowel shading / pronunciation that Chandelier uses, and then calling it "Vowel Mods".  She has mastered Chandeller's style pretty darn well.

Last edited by geno (2014-11-20 00:09:09)

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#9 2014-11-20 11:01:30

D.Starr
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Yeah, she covers the basics in other videos.

I must admit the beginner may not know what they're doing, I stumbled upon her from a radio host on BBC Radio 1 sampling snippets from this video and then directly copying her word for word, rather than glazing over the modifications. Spoken, it sounds nothing like the original but sang correctly it does, does that make sense?

I like how she says in another video that you don't have to commit to every consonant as long as you hint at it, because they can really cause trouble.






She talks about vowel mods here:
http://youtu.be/8GQyrRoMA70?t=4m54s

Last edited by D.Starr (2014-11-20 11:22:30)

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#10 2014-11-20 12:23:09

Singingnewbie
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Phil, great breakdown of the breakdown video! ;)

D.Starr thanks for posting this, i find her videos very interesting

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#11 2014-11-20 15:47:52

geno
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

I watched a few of her other vids - they are good.  She has a good one on breathing.  And great videos breaking down styles and techniques of artists.

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#12 2014-11-20 21:59:06

Marcus
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

I also really like her channel, she's really good and deliver stuff in a fun and informative way! Thanks for posting. There's a free belting "crash course" that she's having as well. Nothing real new for me, but always nice with some fresh take on old excercises.

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#13 2014-11-21 23:17:27

VIDEOHERE
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

well, i checked more of her videos out, and she likes to tense her butt cheeks for high notes and is a firm believer in strong support...she redeemed herself......lol!!!!

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#14 2014-11-22 00:14:06

Martin H
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Break it down some more:

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#15 2014-11-22 00:47:32

Singingnewbie
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Haha!, i found it funny at the beggining and later a bit boring, as for me these terms are somewhat giberish and the whole video kinda useless cause it over-analyses everything. Good idea though.

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#16 2014-11-22 01:09:46

MDEW
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Singingnewbie wrote:

Haha!, i found it funny at the beggining and later a bit boring, as for me these terms are somewhat giberish and the whole video kinda useless cause it over-analyses everything. Good idea though.

The terms being jibberish to you is what makes it useless.   It may be over analysing but it gives an idea of how using just one mode to sing in would be boring and useless. We use many modes and STYLES of singing in one song.
  It also shows that we have choices to make and the ultimate sound and integrity of the song depend on those choices.


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

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#17 2014-11-22 12:49:37

Singingnewbie
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

MDEW wrote:

The terms being jibberish to you is what makes it useless.   It may be over analysing but it gives an idea of how using just one mode to sing in would be boring and useless. We use many modes and STYLES of singing in one song.
  It also shows that we have choices to make and the ultimate sound and integrity of the song depend on those choices.

Even if i understood the terms, it wouldnt more useful, it is a joke to follow up with the "script". If we'd give a singer this guide with the melody to be sung and another singer the audio file to hear and replicate who do you think would have the best result? Give a general guide with few details when needed, flashing for half a second that the singer went from neutral to neutral-medium, give me a break. Thats personal perspective though.

To me these things are self explanatory, almost any song contains lots of vocal modes/effects/colours and yes every singer uses many styles and modes in singing whether he knows details or not whether trained with this technique or not. Also i believe that there are/could be certain songs/styles with one mode that are neither boring nor useless, Satisfied Mind by Johnny Cash comes in mind, but im not sure about that.

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#18 2014-11-22 15:23:13

MDEW
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

This is from one specific vocal program that shows how their "Modes" work together. IT is not about HOW to sing.
It has a purpose when you know the context and the terms and are following that specific Vocal program. It was broken down this way BECAUSE the students asked for it.
     I am not arguing with you, it is Jibberish if you do not know and follow that specific program. ;)


"Knock me down, It's all in vain. I'll get right back on my feet again."  Pat Benatar

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#19 2014-11-23 18:31:26

Martin H
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

@Singingnewbie

Imo, this is no more different than reading sheet music (written representation of music). Or what you'll call the "script".

It still amazes me that singing is most often treated "differently" than another instrument. You probably wouldn't find it weird to see a violinist following a "script".

Last edited by Martin H (2014-11-23 18:32:26)

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#20 2014-11-23 23:58:42

Clint Torres
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Label disease

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#21 2014-11-24 00:49:55

D.Starr
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Clint Torres wrote:

Label disease

Erm?

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#22 2014-11-24 08:26:08

Danielformica
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

just sing…


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#23 2014-11-24 12:53:04

jonpall
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

VIDEOHERE wrote:

she was using vowel mods. on lower notes that didn't require modification but rather articulation.

Yeah, I wonder why she is teaching vowel modification on low notes where they are not needed.

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#24 2014-11-24 13:24:03

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Interpretation.

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#25 2014-11-24 13:56:33

Clint Torres
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

D.Starr wrote:

Clint Torres wrote:

Label disease

Erm?

:)    What I mean is that once we start getting caught up in labeling things and applying catchy little names to techniques, or sounds, things get confusing and at times silly.  As Daniel said above.   Just sing ;)

By the way, I should have noted I was referring to the video Martin posted.

Last edited by Clint Torres (2014-11-24 14:09:39)

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#26 2014-11-24 13:58:39

Singingnewbie
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Agree on that Martin but using that much of notation on an instrument that you actually cant see what you are doing requires, to my understanding, very big effort. The outcome, even if it was better than the listen-sing rather than read the script-sing, there wouldnt be that much difference to justify the work you need to put in. In other words its just for the elite and still not as usable as an audio file to follow. Its ok for show-off but not further.

What i have come to understand after the short time i search about singing is that what Daniel says seems to be the key for me. Simplicity, just sing and i would add just listen and sing, only these two things. Listen carefully, interpret correctly, sing correctly, not hard to do if one is concentrated while doing them.

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#27 2014-11-24 14:16:54

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Notice something though, on the comercial songs that we listen to, the VAST majority have a very careful planning behind them, with tons of details and a lot of times with a coach during the recording to ensure that the best possible line is "extracted".

And yes, it sounds better. It's the interpretation that makes the material interesting to listen to.

Last edited by FelipeCarvalho (2014-11-24 14:17:36)

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#28 2014-11-24 18:06:34

Martin H
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Clint Torres wrote:

What I mean is that once we start getting caught up in labeling things and applying catchy little names to techniques, or sounds, things get confusing and at times silly.  As Daniel said above.   Just sing ;)

I don't think that anyone is getting caught up in labeling things. However, you need terms to communicate. And the more precise and exclusive those terms are, the better the communication. It's about speaking the same language. Everyone who is using C-V-T is speaking the same language and therefore there's very little confusion among the over 250 certified teachers and thousands of students around the world. Those terms are not gimmicks, they serve a very important purpose.

Or as Daniel said to the child: Just swim! And then he threw him in the pool! ;)

Last edited by Martin H (2014-11-24 18:13:52)

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#29 2014-11-24 18:17:50

Clint Torres
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Martin H wrote:

Clint Torres wrote:

What I mean is that once we start getting caught up in labeling things and applying catchy little names to techniques, or sounds, things get confusing and at times silly.  As Daniel said above.   Just sing ;)

I don't think that anyone is getting caught up in labeling things. However, you need terms to communicate. And the more precise and exclusive those terms are, the better the communication. It's about speaking the same language. Everyone who is using C-V-T is speaking the same language and therefore there's very little confusion.

Good point. Sometimes there can be a fine line though between understanding and confusion as well as necessity. It may be an individual thing. More tools for those who may need extra work of have a hard time comprehending and less for those get it more easily.

Martin H wrote:

Or as Daniel said to the child: Just swim! And then he threw him in the pool! ;)

lol....that's how we learned to swim back in the day.  Actually that's how we learned everything. Tossed in with the lions :D

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#30 2014-11-24 18:21:10

ronws
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Martin H wrote:

Clint Torres wrote:

What I mean is that once we start getting caught up in labeling things and applying catchy little names to techniques, or sounds, things get confusing and at times silly.  As Daniel said above.   Just sing ;)

I don't think that anyone is getting caught up in labeling things. However, you need terms to communicate. And the more precise and exclusive those terms are, the better the communication. It's about speaking the same language. Everyone who is using C-V-T is speaking the same language and therefore there's very little confusion among the over 250 certified teachers and thousands of students around the world. Those terms are not gimmicks, they serve a very important purpose.

Or as Daniel said to the child: Just swim! And then he threw him in the pool! ;)

Thanks to watching the vids you linked in, Martin, I also watched a presentation given by Henrik about this very thing. Within CVT, for sure, there is no confusion. Though different teachers and students may actually speak different native languages, the terms mean the same thing, whether spoken in Danish, English, or whatever. Outside of systems such as CVT or 4 Pillars, many teachers use different words, or the same words with different semantics. In fact, one can have more than one voice teacher at a university and they all mean something different with their words. Or even what is meant by a sound. Felipe pointed this out in so many words. He may train with Italian vowel sounds but that does not mean they are "pure." Or that we all mean the same thing with the ah sound, for example. It might actually be a little more toward oh, as a "for instance."

But I don't know if there is going to be a lot of agreement of semantics between different schools of thought, other than the word, twang, which seems to have similar meanings in dissimilar systems.

I like to keep things simple. But I would also advise a student to pick one system they like and stick with that. Which may be to hard to do with training junkies, always wondering if the grass is greener on the other side of that fence.

Last edited by ronws (2014-11-24 18:22:27)


"When the daylight is rising up in my eyes ..." - Klaus Meine

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#31 2014-11-24 18:35:46

Martin H
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Clint Torres wrote:

Good point. Sometimes there can be a fine line though between understanding and confusion as well as necessity. It may be an individual thing. More tools for those who may need extra work of have a hard time comprehending and less for those get it more easily.

I definitely agree. And I don't think that CVT is "over-labeling". Actually, they only introduced 4 new terms within singing pedagogy and then they dropped the old "baggage" terms that means different things to different people. A clever move in my opinion.

The new terms are for the 4 vocal modes:

- Neutral
- Curbing
- Overdrive
- Edge

Note, that those terms are not taken out of thin air. They describe the "character" of the sound of that mode.

Last edited by Martin H (2014-11-24 18:48:17)

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#32 2014-11-24 18:47:53

FelipeCarvalho
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Martin H wrote:

Or as Daniel said to the child: Just swim! And then he threw him in the pool! ;)

hehe right.

Clearly the solution is to just hand him a Complete Swimming Technique book, tell him "Just swim in Front Crawl mode", and THEN throw him in the pool, with the book :P.

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#33 2014-11-24 18:49:42

Martin H
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

;)

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#34 2014-11-24 22:41:31

Danielformica
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From: San Luis Obispo
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Martin H wrote:

Clint Torres wrote:

Good point. Sometimes there can be a fine line though between understanding and confusion as well as necessity. It may be an individual thing. More tools for those who may need extra work of have a hard time comprehending and less for those get it more easily.

I definitely agree. And I don't think that CVT is "over-labeling". Actually, they only introduced 4 new terms within singing pedagogy and then they dropped the old "baggage" terms that means different things to different people. A clever move in my opinion.

The new terms are for the 4 vocal modes:

- Neutral
- Curbing
- Overdrive
- Edge

Note, that those terms are not taken out of thin air. They describe the "character" of the sound of that mode.

But couldn't cvt "new terms" become old" baggage "terms that mean different things to different people when the new guy on the corner reads a marketing book on how to "brand" your product. He comes up with 4 new terms and so on and so forth and now the simple act of singing or speaking in different styles becomes even more lost.   I mean was Broadway belting and classical sounds enough to show different sound color or style. I think it's cool that there are different ways to explain the same thing and I wouldn't say one is better than the other but let's be honest it's all marketing and branding.
And by the way that is how I taught my daughter to swim I threw her in and bam she was treading water like a champ.;)

Last edited by Danielformica (2014-11-24 22:44:49)


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#35 2014-11-24 23:07:15

Jens
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Registered: 2009-01-07
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

FelipeCarvalho wrote:

Martin H wrote:

Or as Daniel said to the child: Just swim! And then he threw him in the pool! ;)

hehe right.

Clearly the solution is to just hand him a Complete Swimming Technique book, tell him "Just swim in Front Crawl mode", and THEN throw him in the pool, with the book :P.

Dont forget it wouldnt be called frontcrawlmode but more like "the powerdrive swim" ;)

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#36 2014-11-24 23:35:25

Martin H
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

@Daniel

"Envy is the art of counting the other fellow's blessings instead of your own."

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#37 2014-11-24 23:41:23

Danielformica
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From: San Luis Obispo
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

@ martin "blind is the fool who follows the trends"-bukowski

Last edited by Danielformica (2014-11-24 23:41:57)


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#38 2014-11-24 23:55:05

Martin H
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Registered: 2008-11-25
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

@Daniel

You are commenting on their approaches. But where are they commenting on your approach??

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#39 2014-11-24 23:57:18

Danielformica
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

@martin "There is no substitute for hard work"

Last edited by Danielformica (2014-11-24 23:58:32)


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#40 2014-11-25 00:01:28

Martin H
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

@Daniel

Do CVT or EVT mention you at all??

PS: Buy your 14 days course rock program!

Last edited by Martin H (2014-11-25 00:03:38)

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#41 2014-11-25 00:05:12

Danielformica
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From: San Luis Obispo
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

@martin I'm commenting on branding/ marketing I'm sure they are fine vocal teachers. And I've been contacted by an estill teacher and a cvt teacher and couple other "methods" about singing. And I taught a few of them. I promised to keep it confidential. So yes some teachers ask about my approach. Which I think is awesome. It's not unheard of. I'm sure some even ask you. Hell even I've asked you a couple questions about cvt so I could help students with cvt backgrounds.


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#42 2014-11-25 00:09:12

Danielformica
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From: San Luis Obispo
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Martin H wrote:

@Daniel

Do CVT or EVT mention you at all??

PS: Buy your 14 days course rock program!

Why would they go public that would hurt their MARKETING..

But they have contacted me which makes me feel good. So thanks for asking:):)


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#43 2014-11-25 00:18:46

Martin H
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Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Interesting song breakdown

@Daniel

Why are you wasting your energy on that???

You'll never ever get to their level! EVT or CVT is far beyond you!

Your only way is to try to dish them. And that is what you are trying to do. But it will not work!! They are already the most respected approaches in the world.

Now, Daniel Formica, instead of dishing, show something informative!

Last edited by Martin H (2014-11-25 00:19:21)

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#44 2014-11-25 00:38:10

Danielformica
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From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

Huh? Now I'm confused I didn't diss them at all. anyway as I said they are fine teachers as they have shown it through good students like you.. And also as I said I think it's cool to have different ways to explain the same thing. I don't believe one is better than the other though I see you are passionate about them being the "most respected" I respect that but that's like saying apples are more respected than oranges..tell that to an Orange lover and he's bound to kick you in the apples:)

good talk

martin said "You'll never ever get to their level! EVT or CVT is far beyond you!"


never ever?
Thats just not nice...im telling my mom on you!!!

Last edited by Danielformica (2014-11-25 01:12:57)


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#45 2014-11-25 01:25:55

m.i.r.
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2014-11-23
Posts: 92
Reputation :   

Re: Interesting song breakdown

Martin H wrote:

@Daniel


You'll never ever get to their level! EVT or CVT is far beyond you!

[/b]

Geez someone needs a hug today. All he was saying is the names are used for marketing. Which they are....doesnt mean the method is wrong or right. Every method likes to put cool little names on sensations, tones, ect. So calm down and high five the next person you see. Throwing rocks in a glass house is not the most intelligent thing.

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#46 2014-11-25 01:47:46

geno
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Registered: 2009-10-30
Posts: 2059
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Re: Interesting song breakdown

I've learned a tremendous amount from both Martin and Daniel.  Both you guys are insanely skilled at singing.

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#47 2014-11-25 01:51:10

Danielformica
TMV Forum Member
From: San Luis Obispo
Registered: 2011-08-10
Posts: 1552
Reputation :   62 
Website

Re: Interesting song breakdown

thanks geno I appreciate that.:)


DANIEL
WWW.YOURVOCALTEACHER.COM
WWW.DANIELFORMICAVOCALSTUDIO.COM
www.soundcloud.com/daniel-formica

Disclaimer-Anything I write or try to help people with on here are techniques and things that have worked for ME.  They are not necessarily" right" or "wrong" but have worked for ME and my 20+ yrs as a professional working
singer.
Thank you

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#48 2014-11-25 09:30:05

jonpall
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 2860
Reputation :   38 

Re: Interesting song breakdown

Um, Martin, buddy, you're doing it again...

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#49 2014-11-25 10:17:47

Martin H
TMV Forum Member
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 1186
Reputation :   31 

Re: Interesting song breakdown

@Daniel

Maybe I was a little harsh. Sorry about that. But really, I get the feeling that a lot of teachers spend too much time on putting others down by claiming this or that. Either it's their fancy names, slick marketing etc. If you want to criticize that's fine, but go for the ball, not the man.

In the end, no teacher or method would survive without one important thing: A happy customer/student.

Sorry for the derail.

Last edited by Martin H (2014-11-25 10:30:37)

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#50 2014-11-25 11:12:56

FelipeCarvalho
TMV Forum Member
From: Brasil
Registered: 2011-07-28
Posts: 2889
Reputation :   61 
Website

Re: Interesting song breakdown

As long as there are solid results, yes.

Happyness without results = snakeoil market.

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